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 Replies: 83 / Views: 12,811 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
I'll preface this by saying that, in principle, I am not entirely opposed to dealers "manipulating" their coins in some ways that preserve and perhaps enhance them (excluding things like tooling, of course). I recall reading somewhere that the great majority of coins on the market have, at some point in their "lives," been affected in some way: cleaning, repatination, toning, waxing, etc. So I'm no "prude" where subtle manipulation is concerned. Having said that, I am perturbed with a particular dealer who seems utterly and overly obsessed with fake desert patinas. A very large percentage of his bronze coins - no matter what ancient culture they come from - are slathered in yellow or yellow-orange fake patinas, to the extent that I can spot most of his bronze coins a mile away. One look at 'em, and I know they are his. Fake patinas are nothing new, of course, and I suspect most collectors have no issues with them. I suppose I don't object to "popping" some of a coin's devices from time to time so they read well. But I have to say that at a certain point the excessiveness of the application of these patinas starts to feel, well, really disrespectful (it's kinda like the number of commercials on TVLand...I mean, at a certain point it gets ridiculous). This particular dealer sells in a forum known for its code of ethics. He sells legitimately ancient coins at mostly fair prices and thus, I suppose, abides by the code as far as it goes. Having said that, one could perhaps argue that numbers ten and thirteen of that code of ethics, which state, respectively, that each dealer "will vouch for the authenticity of items I sell" and "will not intentionally misrepresent items I sell" leave them on shaky ethical ground. At what point does surface manipulation of a coin - or a body of coins - constitute misrepresentation or falsification of an item? Anyway, I'm not quibbling. Like I said, as far as this particular dealer is concerned, it doesn't matter where the coin is from...if it's bronze, it needs to be slopped with yellow: Whether it's Roman Provincial, like these:  Judaean, like these:  Nabataean, like these:  Ptolemaic, like these:  Or other Greek states, like these:  Elymaean (OH, THE HUMANITY!), like these:  Byzantine, like these:  Arab-Byzantine, like these:  (I cropped and flipped the images upside-down so the coins cannot be easily found online. My intent is not to "slam" any dealers, but rather to express a personal pet peeve. I feel better now.) I see there are a number of old threads at Forvm dealing with fake desert/sand patinas...the general consensus seems to be that while they may add beauty to the coins they are, on some level, unethical and should definitely be acknowledged in sellers' descriptions, which of course they never are. In one thread I came by, the poster contrasted images of a coin sold by CNG with its later reappearance on the market (below)...interestingly, while the seller of the manipulated version was never named, it was made clear that he was a dealer from - quite probably - the same forum as the one I reference above. Hmmmm...could it be my guy? I suspect so.  In that same thread, this one was cited - again, "enhanced" between sales:  You guys and gals consider this stuff kosher? Edited by Kamnaskires
01/22/2016 11:08 pm
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
Excellent thread Bob, personally I don't like see a coin that have been artificially treated whether it being a a false patina, by tooling, etc. While I agree that by adding a false patina does in some cases enhances a coins appearance, it has been altered to add more profit to the seller. Out of all the coin types it has always be acceptable to clean ancient, after all most come out of the ground covered in centuries of dirt. Beyond cleaning, anything else done to enhance a coins appearance so that the seller can make a profit is a dishonest practice.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
Thanks for drawing my attention to this Bob.
I haven't got any sand patina coins in my collection and was thinking I probably should have, but this now makes me question the authenticity of such patina's.
What sort of % of coins on Vcoins would be genuine patina's and how many treated I wonder?
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
There is one particular dealer who was responsible for the two modified examples above who had a store at a major vistual venus and this was what he considered standard practice for the majority of his bronze coins. This practice was used to "enhance" his coins to justify a price that his coins that had been previously cleaned down to the metal couldn't justify. He applied this prectice to coins bought from other dealers too as shown above and would achieve $3k - $4k mark up as part of this practice. This store closed back in 2011. Heis now back at the same vitual venue with a different store front as the previous store had some taint associated with it. He sues a range of colours ranging through to dark orange.
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Moderator
United States
34418 Posts |
Bob L thanks for sharing. I hadn't been aware of this practice before and it is good to know. It strikes me as being somewhat similar to the rainbow toning that some dealers always seem to achieve on their mint-state US silver coins. Definitely should be divulged to potential buyers!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
In a discussion on the topic the dealer though that "desert patination" rather than "desert patina" was sufficient clarification that the repatination had taken place. I think that this is disingenuous.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7066 Posts |
Disingenuous indeed, maridvnvm. More often than not, with the great majority of dealers who engage in this kind of stuff, there is no reference to the applied sand patina - indeed sometimes there is instead a boast of "nice desert patina." Of course sometimes a rose is a rose, and the patina is genuine. No way to tell. However, when a single dealer's bronze coins seem to ALL be slathered in yellow with every new upload of inventory, week after week after week, the trickery - if I can call it that - becomes pretty obvious. Quote:
What sort of % of coins on Vcoins would be genuine patina's and how many treated I wonder? Dunno, David. No way to tell. Which, of course, is why the practice goes on unabated. Edited by Kamnaskires
01/23/2016 09:49 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4964 Posts |
I don't like it. I think many of us have applied wax to coins to help protect them. It also makes some of the details "pop" and makes it a bit shiny, but it doesn't cover anything visually. It doesn't mask a porous surface (that first whole coin Bob posted), hide BD scars, or heaven forbid...active BD. Some of you may have seen the Alexandrian tetradrachms that use makeup as a "destert patina"! I have this coin which I suspect it has an "enhanced" patina. When I picked it up, I didn't know such a thing existed...or I wouldn't have. At least the patina wasn't made by Maybelline.  Edited by chrsmat71
01/23/2016 11:53 pm
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
Bob thanks for the reply on the other thread. I checked out that dealers coins and I have actually bought some Islamic silver coins from him. I really hadn't noticed that his bronze coins had a fake patina, but now that you have pointed it out I can see where they all look like they have the patina in the same area.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Yeah, like I said, it's common practice, so he's not alone. But his percentages are really on the high side...and I could cite several in his inventory that, in my opinion, have sadly been ruined in the process. Maybe "ruined" is too strong a word...perhaps these fake patinas are removable? I don't know.
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
I would think if they are not natural and just applied it should be easy to remove with some soaking in distilled water or olive oil.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3442 Posts |
I am far from knowledgeable on the subject of the "desert patina". I have noticed though that the desert look seems to be synonymous with a thick jet black layer of oxidation covering the bronze coin. Of the various types of hard surface patina olive green and black tend to be the most desireable. Many coins which have been 'scrubbed' down to bare metal get retoned but nothing is added to the surfaces.
But it seems the pics here all show bronze coins with the black type of patination. The black patination is relatively uncommon in my searches. Is this seller creating black patination before adding the yellow/orange "desert patina" ?
If this is so it is fraud in my book. Darkening or toning the bare metal of an ancient is not an unreasonable thing to do when the coin has been poorly conserved. But literally painting on a hard black undercoat and then adding on an 'overcoat' of reddish clay is producing a type of counterfeit.
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Valued Member
Australia
338 Posts |
Thanks very much Bob for this post. I was unaware that a fake desert patina existed!
I have recently bought some coins from a dealer (I believe the same dealer you are referring to) without knowledge of the practice and without the coin descriptions indicating that the Patina is not genuine. Having purchased similar types (roman provincial) from other auction houses which have similar patinas I'm not 100% convinced the coins purchased from that dealer have been touched up in my case (call it 95%).
That being said, extremely good, useful and informative post!
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Valued Member
United States
69 Posts |
Can you provide a link to this dealer in question? If the dealer isn't made known to forum members then your eye opening thread doesn't help anyone. And isn't that the point of your thread?
I did a search on vcoins for "desert" but no one dealer stood out.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Quote:
...then your eye opening thread doesn't help anyone Perhaps true where others may be concerned. It genuinely did help me to vent, though. I'd been watching this guy's daily uploads for months, and my suspicions eventually turned to irritation. It was good to voice it here among my CCFamily members. Maybe you're right and it's a useless thread for others, though. Sorry for that. But I just don't want to risk the drama that might come with accusing a specific dealer by name. We're dealing here with a seller from a major online forum, not a shady huckster from Eastern Europe pushing fakes on ebay. If the dealer was named publicly, and then confronted me or CCF, I would be hard-pressed to provide definitive proof. (BUT I know what a preponderance of the numismatic evidence looks like!) In any event, it's a safe assumption that this particular dealer is not the only one doing this. I did want others to at least be aware of the practice (if they were not already). With this knowledge they can, if they so choose, start tracking dealers' uploaded inventories over long periods of time - as I had done here - and draw their own conclusions. |
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Valued Member
United States
69 Posts |
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Replies: 83 / Views: 12,811 |
Posted 01/23/2016 04:14 am
