Hungarian - Forgeries - Replicas - Fantasies

Despite the lighting these look like pressure cast fakes to me. One of the common downfalls of these is that, to save money, they make them in other than the correct alloy.

Colour, texture of surface, weight, lack of fine detail, and differences of detail relative to genuine most often betray them.
It helps to educate yourself, if you build a 'black' collection of the various types (by method of manufacture) of fake coins.

Was offered the Sarawak 50c 1906 for $40 but didn't know whether it was real. How do we tell ?

I'd love these for a couple bucks for my black file. Seems strange that world fakes are harder to find than US fakes.

@rhuarc, first welcome to CCF. I hope that we can have a fruitful discussion about your selling habits. Let's keep the discussion civilized!




This feels like a cop-out to me. Everyone is doing it so it is ok? That is just not how I was raised. There are dozens of people on this forum who go to great lengths to remove "replica" coins (also known as counterfeits) from the marketplace. We care very much that you and others are defrauding your customers.

More sophisticated buyers may see the tell-tale signs of a fake and be smart shoppers, but by the time one of your fakes has been purchased and re-sold multiple times, the fact that it is fake is nearly always obscured. If you knowingly are selling a fake, why not stamp into the metal "COPY" or some other clear indicator that what you have is not a real coin?

This is a hot-button issue here at CCF, and I'm hoping that we can have a robust, but civil discussion with you. Who knows, maybe we can convince you that selling fakes is a bad idea?

austrokiwi Your comments are incorrect on several points and appear to be driven by what I am coming to believe is some form of personal animosity directed at me. If I am not correct please let me know.

First I did not say the coins were manufactured in Hungary - The label on my pictures lists the location of the seller. I have done that since I started making copies of modern fakes for my records. I record the seller handle on the item ID and this lets me know where he/she was from.

The massive eastern European counterfeiting operations are documented in current literature - I suggest that you look at the Slavey school of forgery in Bulgaria among others. They have been around for a long time. The appearance of the Euro has resulted in massive industrial forgery of Euro coins and bills. Coins and currency are forged using many of the same tools. Die/ plate production is key to successful forgery so a quality forger can dabble in both areas though they usually specialize in one type. If you want check some of the 774,000 web sites listed on a Google search.

I did not refer to Rhuarc a forger - in fact I didn't identify anyone in the post. I was warning members not to fooled by coins of this sort because a couple are really high grade (hard to detect) fakes.

The seller (self identified as Rhuarc) is violating ebay rules and by offering to make shipments to the US is committing a FRAUD under US consumer protection laws (HPA as amended). Selling a copy, replica or counterfeit without the word COPY stamped clearly into or on the item is a legal violation and is also considered an ethical violation by the ANA. The newest version of the HCA was recently signed by President Obama and it has tightened up the rules against aiding counterfeiters in distribution of their work. It now covers middlemen who sell coins, currency or financial instruments. There is no longer the exception for a innocent sale between a well informed buyer and seller provided the sale involves delivery over the US border.

I do not often contact foreign sellers because of the language barrier. What is understood in English may not be understood by people who speak English as a second language. The reasons posted (by Rhuarc) for his actions are no defense at all in my opinion. So had I written, I would have gotten the same meaningless answers as were posted here. That would not have stopped me from posting the comment.

In many cases, sellers see no illegality in selling numismatic forgeries without COPY as long as they provide "warning". That excuse is no longer valid in the US under the newly revised law.

You say:




There is absolutely something wrong being done - simply by virtue of the fact that unmarked copies are being shipped into the US. The seller and buyer are complicit in fraud if these coins are passed off as genuine by any downstream agent.

Posting items on ebay US requires following US laws and ANA rules .

Finally you say




Not quite sure about your point in making such a statement. However if that is a threat of a lawsuit - I encourage him to test the law in a US court. Remember - I never indicated who was selling these coins.

Rhuarc You make a good point in one respect, but you are blaming me for something I didn't do. Moreover, you are in general incorrect when you say;




When I worked for ebay - I often took the extra step of informing sellers that they had posted counterfeits copies, forgeries, replicas or fantasy non-circulating coins. I only did that if it looked like an honest error by a beginner just as you say.

Most members of the Coin Watch Committee never wrote to sellers warning them. It was ebay policy to terminate auctions before asking or giving the sellers a second chance. This was enforced when the seller said that he knew the coins or bills were not genuine monetized items.

I no longer report items to ebay for termination. I no longer report items to the "counterfeit" sections of this forum either. It is now a waste of time since you can report the same item being sold by the same seller over and over and the seller remains a member of ebay. That was an ebay policy decision made when they terminated the CWC.

So to put it clearly - I did not report your auctions to ebay. Someone else did that. But they should have been reported.

Regarding the statement that your items are "OK for ebay rules", that is simply incorrect. You are not a beginner. The fact that there were warnings that the coins were not genuine or non-circulating or fantasies means that you do know.

I have always been opposed to selling recently made numismatic forgeries (and all similar items regardless of the terms used) unless they have the word COPY on them. That has been the law in the US since 1974. It is not a recent law.

So I checked what you have for sale now. You have 683 items posted. You sell at this time selling numerous items - at least 17 out of the first 20 that I reviewed that can not be sold to a US buyer and can not be shipped legally into the US.

All items that resemble coins but which are not copies of actual coins are included in the law, should in my opinion, carry the clear warning specified in the HPA as amended. The only way to sell these to US buyers is to comply with US law and mark each item COPY.

I know that selling coins or bills that are properly marked COPY brings less in payments. Why? Because the buyer is fully informed that the item has minimal resale value and a buyer that plans to re-sell fraudulently can not do so with COPY in place.

The fraud that the HCA originally sought to prevent was the sale of these essentially worthless medals (scrap metal value) to unsuspecting buyers who believe incorrectly that they were coins and they have a reasonable inference that they will appreciate in value. The recent modification to the HCA was put in place to clear up the status of middlemen who sell the coins with verbal or written warnings by making the middlemen complicit in the fraud.

The only way you can ship most of your current items to the US is by making them comply with US law. There is no longer a loop-hole for the shipper.

So I still believe that since the majority of your postings do not belong in the "Coin" section and because you are located outside the US - ebay should stop all of your auctions. Some few may be genuine but the bulk are simply not.

Coin collectors with experience will know this and avoid your auctions. The only bidders will be people who are uninformed or people intending to buy a recently made numismatic forgery.

I may have bought coins from you in the past but I mark illegal coins before re-sale or trade. I normally mark them on arrival - which follows the spirit of the HPA if not the precise letter of the law.

I can not say I am at all surprised by Rhuarc's reaction, it is actually typical of sellers involved in illegal activity when they are caught red handed. Deny, deny, deny. He simply will not accept as fact that ebay requires compliance with the Hobby Protection Act when coins or other numismatic items are shipped to the US.

What part of compliance with US law does he not accept? To ship numismatic items to the US everyone must comply with US law. There are no exceptions in the statute (with the exception of common carriers of the mail who don't even know what is in the packages they are transporting.)

Rhuarc says:




The first line in quotes is part of the overview of ebay rules and regulations but it is incomplete and must be read in connection with all other regulations and policy statements made by ebay. Also it is extremely critical to note that the "accurate description" clause noted above only applies to actual "stamps, coins and paper money" which are items he is not actually selling. Only genuine numismatic items are covered by the accurate description standard. Fantasy coins are not genuine. He is trying to make an exception for Fantasy coins that does not exist in the law. He is engaged in a fallacy of logic.

Perhaps a legal interpretation can be made that way in Hungary - but it is NOT the case in the US.

The defense Rhuarc raises that "fantasy coins are not replicas" is the same defense used for the "Evasion" coins made in England in the late 1700s. Evasions are now illegal in England (since 1796) and are illegal in the US and have been so for almost as many years.

The actual text of the HPA defines what an Imitation numismatic item is. The definition of that term is critical to our discussion because the HPA and other US laws (FTC) all use the same legally defined term. Other descriptive terms are included in one of the two general categories of imitation or genuine. There are under the US law only two ways to view a numismatic item. Original or Imitation.

Section 304.1 reads:




The text is completely clear, at least to me. Put simply - things that appear to be genuine (or original) numismatic items but are not genuine (original) are by definition "Imitations". Properly authorized re-issues or restrike are considered genuine (original) and reproductions, copies and counterfeits are all classified as imitations.

The terms "reproduction, copy, or counterfeit" follow the word OR they are not definitions in and of themselves. They add to but do not alter the definition of Imitation. They are in simple fact imitations themselves. Also note that altered genuine items are included as imitations and that a re-issue or re-strike must be done officially by a government, so "private issues" are also included in imitation and are prohibited when the producing entity has no legal standing to issue genuine monetary items.

The requirement for marking such items is stated as follows:




On the ebay site can be found several references to US law that governs all ebay transactions and which must be complied with by all sellers who do business with buyers located in the US. When you post an item for sale on US ebay you are agreeing to comply with all applicable US laws. If that is not acceptable - choose an ebay venue where there are no such restrictions.

Here is a brief recital from an ebay (US) link that pertains to this case.




Simply restated the greater part of Rhuarc's items MUST be marked COPY to be shipped to the US. They are Imitation numismatic items by definition simply because they are not genuine numismatic items.

Rhuarc's last comment was:




I am not at all sure we should forget about him, if we actually believe in cutting down the supply of bad numismatic material by eliminating or penalizing the middlemen who ship bad material to the US. (See section d above "Provision of assistance or support".)

Rhuarc is exactly the type of seller that the Coin Watch Group was originally set up to identify and terminate. He is exactly the type of seller that the revised HPA targets. He should not be allowed to hide behind "descriptions" no matter how clear they are to him or anyone else. All Imitations must be marked not simply described as to what they actually are.

The only parties that are now exempt under the terms of the law are the common carriers that provide shipping services. All other parties to the shipment of "imitation" numismatic items (the key definition under the statutes) are equally liable under the law.

That is why I own a punch - to comply with HPA.

I rest my case.

Any rebuttal?

I have no idea where that came from! Perhaps an overly emotional response?
I may well be in error on the counterfeit operations in the East.
My reaction was reflecting "horror I had at how easily you identified a person as a wrong doer on so little investigation. Perhaps my wording was harsh but it was no less harsh then the opening post of this thread.I am sorry Swamper Bob thinks I was responding to him as a person rather than looking at the behavior I was concerned with

I would have had greater respect and would have agreed heatedly with the post if I had read this ( or words to the effect):






I still have to ask: Why wasn't the seller given the chance to respond to concerns before he was publicly identified by the posting of his ebay listing here?

With in a few hours of this thread being posted there had been over 600 views. I would ask every single one of those viewers this question:

If you had listed something in Error or in ignorance on ebay would you not prefer that a concerned person first communicate with you in private? I would!