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 Replies: 49 / Views: 10,494 |
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Valued Member
United States
108 Posts |
Am relatively new back to collecting and have been looking at CAC stickered coins. Are these assigned to coins which are +++ in regards to technical grades? I sure have not made a correlation between the CAC-stickered coins and eye appeal. Maybe I'm using the "wrong test" (eye appeal). Comments/Guidance appreciated.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4591 Posts |
NO.
Although it's a common mis-conception. Go read CAC's site.
Divide coins into A, B and C - A's are the higher end OF THE GRADE. Bs are solid. Cs are the lower end of the grade.
All are, say, EF40s. The As just miss being EF45s and the Cs are just better than VF35s.
As and Bs get CAC green stickers, meaning "Solid for the grade".
A CAC Gold bean means it's solid for the next grade.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4337 Posts |
CAC is starting to have an impact on slabbed coins IMO
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
Quote:
CAC is starting to have an impact on slabbed coins IMO CAC is having a much bigger effect on the market than that. There are a great many collectors and investors who won't touch a coin unless CAC has approved of it. A fair number of those people won't touch any coin unless it is PCGS graded and CAC approved. The NGC CAC approved coins don't count in their opinion. Let me say at the outset that the founder of CAC offered me a position as a CAC grader in exchange for having my collection graded by CAC free of charge. I turned him down because I thought that there was a conflict of interest. In addition it was my understanding that only active dealers were selected to do that, and I was retired. CAC gets it right on a great many coins, but they are not perfect. If you want an education, sit down and view the lots in a large coin auction by say Heritage or Stacks-Bowers. You will see a number of CAC approved coins. A lot of them are on the money. Others, well I'm left shaking my head thinking, "How did THAT happen?" Like buying coins in slabs, YOU have to have some knowledge of grading not to get taken. All of us make mistakes. I'll post one of mine here for grading shortly. Still don't depend on CAC to save you from all of the over graded coins. They are good, but not perfect. |
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Valued Member
 United States
108 Posts |
Appreciate the comments. Thank you!
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Valued Member
United States
383 Posts |
I can tell you that CAC is extremely tough on early and pre-Civil War branch-mint gold. If you come across any 'beaned' examples with nice eye-appeal at a reasonable price... I'd recommend you buy before somebody else beats you to it.
ET
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
CAC is a market maker first and a "grade checker" second. No sticker is given to average or overgaded coins; green stickered coins are above average for their assigned grade; gold sticker coins are substantially above average or undergraded by a grade level. The (currently) 30-35% market premium, or higher, for CAC Green stickered coins was entirely created by CAC, mainly through purchasing coins they approve at higher prices, moving the market upwards. It's like this in my understanding: You buy a really nice MS-65 Morgan dollar for $150. CAC approves it with a green bean, then offers to buy the coin from you. You accept. The coin is then resold at $200 to $225 at auction or via dealer trades. Collectors/purchasers/investors see that the CAC coin is selling for a premium over the non-CAC coin, and therefore assume that somehow the CAC coin is "better" and worth more money. This fuels collectors & dealers to submit all their coins for CAC approval, generating large amounts of fees, and further altering the market. The money generated by this allows CAC to purchase CAC-approved coins on the open market, often at inflated prices, further tampering with the system. CAC is the #1 buyer of CAC approved coins. The fact that CAC is the sole determiner of whether or not a coin gets a CAC sticker further allows them to conduct what amounts to price-fixing, since they can sticker as few or as many coins as they like to influence prices. CAC does a great job of identifying coins that are "solid" for their assigned grade. However, the number one market maker / price setter for CAC coins is CAC themselves. Don't get me wrong -- paying more for better coins is common sense. But CAC takes it to the extreme by creating an artificial price level for their product by market manipulation in the hundreds of millions of dollars. CAC has also allowed the substantiation of a market floor for sight-unseen trading of slabs, which means that investors can buy, sell, and trade CAC slabbed coins like commodities, without some of the inherent risk in doing so with non-CAC-stickered slabs. That's not a bad thing or a good thing, per se, just the way it is. However, increased volume leads to increased volatility. CAC was designed to benefit investors and dealers, not collectors; and that benefit comes in the form of creating further markup. CAC will tell you that this was the case long before they existed, and I agree, but CAC was the first company to take what used to be a "secret" and make it common knowledge (that TPG's often create their own markets.) Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
03/16/2016 9:41 pm
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Valued Member
United States
215 Posts |
I think I prefer a good coin dealer over a cac sticker. some dealers really know their eye candy!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4591 Posts |
Quote:
CAC is a market maker first and a "grade checker" second. Agreed Quote:
A CAC blue coin is overgraded by a grade level or below average for its assigned grade; no sticker is given to average coins; green stickered coins are above average for their assigned grade; gold sticker coins are substantially above average or undergraded by a grade level. Not true. CAC doesn't issue blue stickers, just green and (rarely) gold - and in fact the gold sticker is now de-emphasized on their web site. For example, there are (today) 54,702 Green Morgans and just 238 CAC Gold sticker Morgans/ From http://www.caccoin.com/about-cac/Quote:WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:  Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade. Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins. and http://www.caccoin.com/faqs/Quote:
3. If a coin doesn't receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?
Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade. Unfortunately, it is an inescapable reality that many are at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade. CAC's rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade. CAC will eventually reject tens of thousands of accurately graded coins. Many of these rejected coins will be acceptable to numerous dealers and collectors and will continue to be available in the marketplace. For quality-conscious collectors and dealers, a coin with a CAC sticker will have significant meaning. and Quote:
5. I noticed that CAC uses the term "premium quality" to describe coins that receive a CAC sticker. How does CAC define premium quality?
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker. -----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4469 Posts |
To my knowledge CAC has never used a blue sticker, they only acknowledge green and gold stickers on their web site. Sometimes the green sticker will appear blue in a photo. Here is one for sale that appears blue, but is listed on the CAC web site as green. 291600541627 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4591 Posts |
The holgram does reflect bluish tones at some angles of light.
Ask yourself, if you really want to trust the photo if they can't accurately capture the bean?
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4989 Posts |
Seems pointless. If PCGS has already certified a coin, silly to have to pay again to have another grader put a sticker on it. I, for one, pay no attention to anything but the coin itself and the PCGS opinion. Couldn't care less if someone else has stuck a bean on it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7840 Posts |
Have you ever seen (or owned) a coin that you thought was undergraded? Most people go by the saying "buy the coin, not the holder". TPG are human just like the rest of us and have bad days as well. You could send it to the originating TPG and request a regrade, for a fee, and hope that they see the error in their previous observation. Or you could have it sent to CAC and see what they think for a whole lot less. If you have a coin that is under four figures, it would cost you $12 plus shipping...if...it passes their critique. If not, I believe that there is no charge, other than the shipping. Just another way to look at it.  Edited by oih82w8
03/16/2016 6:49 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
I value the service that CAC provides, but on the other hand, I feel that it is creating artificial market pressure (causing prices to rise.) My biggest concern is that CAC might be working towards a perception that a non-CAC coin is somehow inferior, and that may result in continuously depressed prices for non-CAC coins, which is not beneficial to many collectors at all.
I don't want to see market-cornering, wherein CAC, say, buys up hundreds of slabbed examples of a certain date and coin, slaps green stickers on them all, and then resells them at a large markup through their network of CAC-member dealers. This takes coins out of the hands of collectors and small dealers and puts them into the hands of investors and speculators while turning a tidy profit, and the rising prices deter new collectors from ownership.
I have seen that other attempts to provide similar services in different specialties (MAC, QA Check) have met with limited or moderate success, perhaps due to CAC's dominance of the "grade-check" market.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Also -- everyone is correct, there is no blue CAC -- apparently it's just a lighting trick. Now I know.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4591 Posts |
P-
It's all in how you say it. For many years, it was illegal in the US to charge more for using a credit card. It was NOT, however, illegal to offer a discount for cash. Not only did it achieve the same goal (transferring the cost of the credit card fees to the consumer), but it made them a little extra for people who failed to ask for the discount.
CAC carefully doesn't SAY the bean makes the coin more valuable but they do offer to BUY it at above non-bean market price. Any inferences are left to you to make.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Replies: 49 / Views: 10,494 |
Posted 03/15/2016 10:57 am
