Vilagran - A Hero Or A Zero - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 9 / Views: 2,165
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 03/16/2016 12:39 pm http://www.ebay.com/itm/37156817347...RK:MEBIDX:IT Sometimes you just need to take a chance. Having been in this WORLD now for several years (not much time) I did read the MNA Journal where Max Keech of MNA said he has not verified yet a genuine VILAGRAN counterstamp. I saw this example on E-Bay and decided to purchase it for several reasons: 1. Keech had indicated he believes this counterstamp is also a mintstamp where he believes its part of the minting process and as such the host coin must be a cast and prior to 1814. 2. From what is seen in the picture the stamp looks crude and the severe surface corrosion (not man induced) looks UNIFORM across the fields INTO the counterstamp area. 3. We do know at least from my records two other fakes? are seen on 2 Reales hosts. One in the recent Stacks Sale which I heard that was the Guttag Brothers holdings of WOI and the other in some Superior Sale (date escapes me). So I have traced only three on 2R hosts. 4. Keech has indicated all stamps in his opinion are FAKES - which leaves the question - what does a genuine look like as the standard? 5. The coin is in route. I asked the seller and not that it means anything of its pedigree - it comes from an old Mexican Collection acquired by Heritage. This seller is apparently selling these coins for Heritage or indirectly. He is a legitimate seller. 6. Once the coin arrives I will try to gently remove? - maybe some more soil to expose MORE of the counterstamp. It may not be possible. 7. From its condition it looks NOT to be added later but during the coins life cycle at this time. 8. LOOK CLOSELY at the circular dots on the border of this counterstamp - they appear crude and not uniformly around as with other later fakes. This stamp is WAY different and crude as one may wish to expect. Hero or Zero ... who can say. Max, Ralph B. or M. Dunnigan ... show me a real one? Max portrays one in the MNA Journal on a cast 8R with a Morelos counterstamp. He does not say if this is a genuine standard and again says everyone he has seen believes its a fake. So why portray the picture. I guess to show these larger circle dots all-around types are the typical fakes. A probable fake with the larger dots: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Villa-Gran-...371568173476 JPL Edited by colonialjohn 03/16/2016 1:06 pm Report this Post to the Staff

Spence Moderator United States 34430 Posts	Posted 03/16/2016 4:00 pm Interesting. It seems like the punch was not perpendicular to the coin surface with your coin. I can only make out the bottom half of the C/P. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 03/16/2016 4:10 pm From the pictures only half comes through which may also be explained due to the SEVERE surface corrosion. I should be clear here - STICK THE KNIFE IN ME - HURT MY FEELINGS - if you see something wrong. Obviously I will post better pics and more information once its received. I do realize its difficult with these crude pictures. JPL Report this Post to the Staff
Spence Moderator United States 34430 Posts	Posted 03/16/2016 6:12 pm No knives. Just an observation that only the GRAN seems visible on your coin. It seems more likly to me that the punch was oblique as opposed to corrosion removing so much metal that the C/P is partially missing. However, it will be interesting to get a report from you once the coin is in hand. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Report this Post to the Staff
jdmern Pillar of the Community United States 1949 Posts	Posted 03/16/2016 6:25 pm Very interesting piece! Looking forward to your thoughts when it is in hand! Seller is top-notch though, for sure Boardwalk Numismatics http://stores.ebay.com/jdmern/ https://boardwalknumismatics.com Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 03/16/2016 8:30 pm It was the uniform surface and these crude circular dots ... Keech has Villagran active as 1812-mid-1813 (MNA Journal March 2015). Again he suggests its a mint stamp, must be on a cast coinage host on a Mexico City host, applying his stamp in the final step of the process. Julian Villagran was executed in June 1813 so any host dated 1814 or later would be spurious. I will check the date closer when coin is in hand. JPL Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 03/19/2016 2:14 pm It arrived and will do a XRF analysis this week. I will report a stereo microscope opinion also on this piece. To me it looks genuine - but you can argue that's because I own it. LOL. Stay tuned ... JPL Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 03/31/2016 3:05 pm Finally did the SEM/EDS analysis on this piece and it showed the following: Cu (48.5%), Ag (51.6%), Cl(0.35%) & S(0.77%). So a cast silver but a debased silver issue. Gold if present was below 0.5% (detection limit). From my current library I trace three examples on 2R hosts: 1. This specimen on the expected and desired Carolus IIII host. 26.3 mm, 6.5 grams or 100.3 grs.. Host coin based on history must pre-date 1814.Date illegible but "1" present on this CAROLUS IIII host. 2. Superior Feb. 1978:L 1763. Called cast silver. Ex. FCC Boyd / Pradeau. Cast 2R 1799MoFM host. 3. Stacks 11-2012 Sale (Guttag Brothers). Lot 11183. KM298 Plate Coin on a cast 1802 MoFT Carolus IIII host. Max Keech again calls all he has seen spurious in his MNA article (see previous post). This is the VILLA GRAN withe large dots. This is different. Small crude dots in a slightly irregular circular fashion. The contamination or soils seen in the photo blend in perfectly withe the counterstamp area and the adjacent fields of the coin IMO and shows this expected high sulfur/chlorine type of corrosion which confirms its old age. A "V" is also seen under a stereo-scope so I expect this counterstamp was irregularly struck due to the weakness of VILLA above GRAN. To be continued ... all the VILLA GRAN counterstamps I have seen withe the exception of the Stacks 2R above and this piece have been the large dot type which Keech does not like. There has been speculation that some insurgent issues may be debased to some degree ... the fact that this is debased may not necessarily make it a CCC. IMO. Edited by colonialjohn 03/31/2016 3:35 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Spence Moderator United States 34430 Posts	Posted 03/31/2016 3:56 pm @colonialjohn, would love to see a close up of the counterstamp when you have a chance. I don't know enough to help you identify real vs. fake, but am interested especially since you said that you can see part of the letter V. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 03/31/2016 4:09 pm See the original E-Bay listing - he does a pretty good job. If I have time perhaps I can upload a better image to this thread - if possible of the counterstamped area. That dark pink/reddish (whatever color) soil is composed of silver, chlorine and sulfur. Chlorine and sulfur of course being the #1 and #2 contaminants found on any coin's surface. Report this Post to the Staff
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