Potential Counterfeit Countermark 8 Reales In Upcoming Heritage Sale?

Personally, I never heard of a chop-mark INTERFERING with a counter-mark. One is to test the integrity of a coin the other to impose a new value. Host coin looks legit.

JPL

Here is the reverse of the coin showing the lack of wear on the damage to the reverse of the coin:

Revision: I just noticed on very close examination that there is some wear associated with the chops. Less wear is associated with the oval counterstamp. See below.










I see this as adding up to a cull 8R with scratches and heavy chops having a forged stamp added to increase value.

John The counterstamp is a very close copy of one version of the original stamp. It is however a very crude stamp and anyone with half way decent engraving skills would have no problem duplicating it. I am still working on a study to confirm the dimensions and compare them to known originals.

However, the existence of this coin makes no sense at all given the number of unlikely or previously unknown factors that combine in this ONE coin.

I am a great believer in occam's razor. The simplist solution to a complex problem is usually the correct solution. Stated in a way more applicable to this case, I would paraphrase it as, "Too many rare or unique possibilities linked together usually amounts to an impossibility."

That is exactly the case I see operating here.

I have looked at perhaps a dozen examples of that same stamp and every one shows the percussive surface on the reverse as smooth or nearly smooth. The roughest surface that I could locate looks like it was rusty - smooth but rusty. So you need to postulate that Honduras switched to a VERY rough anvil to strike this one example. That is rather unlikely at best.

Second the route Mexico - China - Honduras is exceptionally unlikely. Before 1818 there was a prohibition on the export of silver from China. Deficits of payment, if there were any, were paid in gold NOT silver. So there is almost no situation short of a single individual (best case a sailor) bringing the coin back from China for the coin to move from China to Honduras.

Third, the Honduras punch itself is weakest at the point closest to the chop. This for me establishes that the chops were definitely present first.

Fourth, the host coin has a significant number of surface anomalies that point, in my opinion, to the coin being a silver restrike made after 1830 at the very earliest. It could be English in which case there is no known way of proving the contention beyond doubt since pre-1850 silver contains gold. Without access to the edge design itself or to the coin, I believe my opinion in this regard is as good as anyone at NGC.

Fifth, small chops are found on earlier Portrait 8 reales - these large ones are typical of chops applied to Cap and Ray 8Rs and Portrait restrikes that went to China after 1870. They were however, very common on the 8 reales that came out of China in large lots in the 1970s and 1980s. Many of these were darkly stained culls.

Sixth, the majority of re-stamped 8Rs that circulated in Honduras did so for an extended period of time. There were no coin collectors taking them out of circulation in 1818, yet this coin shows minimal post stamp wear.

Seventh, all or nearly all of the wear seen on the coin occurred BEFORE the coin went to China. There is a small amount of wear visible on the side opposite the chops. The coin returned to Honduras to be re-stamped BEFORE 1818 which is the end date for the re-stamping of this issue. Very little wear took place after 1818. Taken together this is a situation that would have been very rare.

Finally eighth, the fact that black silver tarnish takes a while to develop would indicate burial for a considerable period of time at some point. There is a very thick deposit associated with one of the chops where it remains intact. It was not compressed by the application of the chop. Yet the dark tarnish associated with the Honduran stamp has clearly been compressed (crushed) by the stamp application. This means that the burial and tarnish development occurred in the very restricted time frame AFTER the general wear to the coin had occurred and AFTER the chops were applied to the coin and BEFORE the Honduran stamp was applied.

The simple conclusion is rather obvious. This 8 reales was buried for decades before returning to the west. It was a cull with two large deforming chops and two scratches (which also contain black deposits). The Honduran stamp is a forgery applied to make a $50 coin worth ten times as much.

Excellent. When I did purchase West Indies counter stamps I followed two rules - good pedigrees and exact Pridmore plate matches or past MAJOR AUCTION specimen verification's. Sometimes a cataloger would indicate a new discovery type counter mark - but then you just have to decide based on your instincts. I think being in a Heritage Sale and certified this could take some political pull to take this out of the auction.

I spent a year assembling a top notch library on West Indies BEFORE my first purchase including all the big BALDWIN's sales who I consider the best firm to purchase these pieces from at auction. Its a DANGEROUS field FLOODED with forgeries and contemporary circulating counterfeits. To me this has some collector value ... as a novelty piece. Perhaps even several hundred ... that is just me ... although too many of these can POISON your collection ... CCCs and regals do not MIX very well in this series. <VVBG>.

JPL

swamperbob,

I asked a forum question regarding a potentially counterfeit George III Honduras Colony countermark on an 1808 Charles IV 8 Reales restrike with Chinese chopmarks about a year ago, to which you posted a very thorough response confirming my suspicions. The coin was just featured on the cover of 'Chopmark News', and I sent the editor a link to your findings. I just wanted to confirm with you if it was alright to reprint selections from your forum comments in a subsequent edition of the magazine updating the status of the coin?

That particular coin sold for $1762.50 in that auction.

I guess somebody thought it was real or didn't care.