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Help Indentifying Possibly Unsual Constantius II

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New Member

United Kingdom
2 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  10:21 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add AlexLehr to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi,

Picked up this coin a while back in a group,

It appears to be Constantius II as caesar camp gate coin abit damaged though

Is it this Unusual coin? as I'm struggling to find a similar reference to it
http://www.notinric.lechstepniewski...480-475.html

Obv: flivlcon.......ivsnobc
Rev: provide..... (some letters I'm not clear on)

Help-Indentifying-Possibly-Unsual-Constantius-II

Help-Indentifying-Possibly-Unsual-Constantius-II

Many thanks for any help
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Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  11:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This website should help:

http://www.tesorillo.com/aes/152/152i.htm

Scroll down to Constantius II, looks like yours is the portrait on the second row, far right.

There is something strange going on with his nose and lips... my best guess is that either the die started to wear out and an attempt was made to re-engrave by hand on the fly, or else the coin was over-cleaned and the cleaner attempted to tool the nose and lips back in so the coin would sell for more.
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lrbguy's Avatar
United States
949 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Finn,
Thank you for the link to tesorillo.com. I was hoping that eventually Guido Bruck's Kupferpraegung would be available online. This site used that as a jumping off point and very artfully rendered from actual coins a lot of the illustrations Bruck had originally drawn. Nice!

Since they were redoing the work from the ground up, and making connections to RIC, I wish they would have matched the bust types to the RIC numbering and given a reference table correlating the busts to the mints that produced each type. That is the sort of tool that would be needed to identify the OP coin here according to all of the possible RIC listings. The nice thing about a website, it that such an addition could still be done.

Despite that, this is an outstanding reference which I was very happy to bookmark. I doff my hat to you, sir.
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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
United States
4883 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First off, welcome.

The degree of relief in the area of the nose/lips seems to me to rule out the specimen itself having being altered.

My (limited) experience with Roman coins is that there's a great deal of variance in design details (as the website referenced above shows), this owing to different artisans having produced the dies, so I wouldn't read too much into any particularly atypical portrait.
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
04/08/2016 3:36 pm
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Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the nose is just an outline, and the lips are separated from the rest of the face.

From what I have read, Roman mint-makers had a master portrait punch which was kept under lock and key when it wasn't being used to sink a new obverse die. There were many master portraits, but the dies werent made from scratch. If the die became clogged or worn, I could see a mint employee just grabbing a pick and "fixing" it, rather than bugging the supervisor to get the big boss to make a new die.

Conversely, notice the environmental damage that is gumming up the detail on the reverse. If the discoverer/cleaner of this coin was too hasty with metal tools, they could have just scraped out the damaged copper, leaving where they thought the nose and lips should be. Notice the different color around the area in question.

Regardless of the scenario, I feel that something happened there.
Edited by Finn235
04/08/2016 4:11 pm
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  4:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the community

Interesting detail on the nose and mouth. I think that the die was damaged in that area and rather than cutting a whole new die the nose and mouth was reworked.
New Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AlexLehr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thankyou for the link Finn235, A great reference tool I didn't know existed.

Interesting I never thought to look at the lips in detail. Under a magnifying glass there's wear around the lips but doesn't look like it has been scraped. Perhaps like you say it came from a worn die
Edited by AlexLehr
04/08/2016 4:33 pm
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lrbguy's Avatar
United States
949 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2016  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the nose is just an outline, and the lips are separated from the rest of the face.


I did a little comparing with Constantius II gates from various mints, and noticed that the mouth parts are not very prominent in the various profile poses. These parts on this image are too "straight on" for a good profile view:


Help-Indentifying-Possibly-Unsual-Constantius-II

But as I see it, the upper heavy wavy horizontal line is the bottom of the nose,
Below that is a heavy upper lip
below that is a short heavy mark for the lower lip
below that is a short gap and then the chin.

None of these features is shaped this way on a normal profile view on the other coins of this type I looked at.
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