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Another Step Towards A Cashless Society In Canada

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  4:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheCoinHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The currency world is so convoluted that at some point in the future we will be returning to bullion.
Valued Member
GregJG's Avatar
Canada
257 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GregJG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think we will have to go through the motions with purely online currency and/or crypto-currency (more likely a government regulated version of Bitcoin)
Then most likely back to bullion haha I agree.

I recently went through some calculations using Canadian Coin Mintage numbers
In the history of Canadian coins we have minted around $6billion face value of coins. Now I'm curious how much paper money.
Valued Member
TomSwift's Avatar
China
171 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TomSwift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@priorpence, the Blockchain is the mechanism that drives BitCoins. People are excited about the technology because it is impossible to alter or modify so it can be used in many ways to make information transfer more efficient. Not too sure what they mean about Canada leading the way since Bitcoin is the pioneer of this technology and virtually all the calculations are done in China. There are many startups using the technology but for currency, Bitcoin has the advantage due to the infrastructure already in place. I can't see the purpose of a new Canadian cryptocurrency when there already a decentralized, independent currency already available.
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My problem is that you can't get notes or coin in Bitcoin.

I don't know of any bank that deals in Bitcoin.

A cashless society means no credit or debit cards.
I have never had a credit card: Reason? By dealing in cash only, I have always forced myself to plan my spending and to budget rigorously.
The result is that I have never been in debt , and I must have saved $squillions over a lifetime in planned spending and budgeting.

Never had a big annual income.
The benefit? I have fully owned my house for over 20 years, I have a coin collection valued at tens of $thousands, and I own a Mercedes car, which is rather more special and individual than most of them.

And I have paid virtually no interest to buy any of it, as well as never had to pay wasted money on rent for housing.

Fortunately, my kids have learned most of what I put into practice.
Edited by sel_69l
06/24/2016 12:16 am
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TomSwift's Avatar
China
171 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TomSwift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With Bitcoins, you don't need banks. You can save Bitcoins, invest Bitcoins, transfer bitcoins to anyone instantly. Completely secure, can never be confiscated by a government because no one knows you even have them. It is corruption proof because every transaction is completely public yet completely anonymous. It is immune from inflation because there is a fixed amount and no government can make more. As you can imagine, many governments do not like bitcoin and find it a threat to their power. Same with banks.
Valued Member
TomSwift's Avatar
China
171 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TomSwift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As you can probably guess, I am a huge fan of bitcoins and the entire idea behind them. No government can manipulate it, you are responsible for their security, borders are irrelevant and inflation is a non-issue. I have sent money to people around the world instantly, at a user fee of less than a dollar. I can carry a dollars in my pocket and nobody can access it without my permission. It is the future.
Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  10:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In the history of Canadian coins we have minted around $6billion face value of coins. Now I'm curious how much paper money


Since the USA began producing the big headed Benjamin in 1996, they have produced $2.28576 trillion in $100 banknotes, about half of which are still in circulation. Another $0.15808 billion had production problems. They were trying to find a machine that could sort through the banknotes so they could isolate the bad ones.

The Bank of Canada does not publish production quantities of banknotes, but as of the end of 2015 they are circulating
$75,496.90 million in banknotes.

While the USA has far more $100 banknotes circulating per person, most of these are overseas. Other than that, Canada is circulating almost as many banknotes per person as the USA. It surprises me because Canada makes a big deal out of the desire to reduce the importance of cash.

Number of banknotes per person 
Denomin - Canada- USA - Sweden
$100	11.3	33.6	0.2
$50	 6.6	 5.0	8.7 ~CAD$77 ~US$60
$20	25.8	26.6	2.0 ~CAD$31 ~US$24
$10	 3.6	 5.9	6.4
$5	 6.8	 8.5	1.6

While Swedish banknotes are actually more valuable than USA and Canadian banknotes, I put them in the same column as their closest equivalent. For instance the primary Swedish banknote is actually worth about US$60. Sweden has the smallest amount of cash of any developed nation.

Sweden has never had the equivalent of a ~$20 banknote, but last October one was introduced. The government sees it as a way to wean people off the ~$50 banknote.

In the USA $20 in 1982 has the same buying power as: $49.79 in 2016. So logically you would think that the $50 would be the primary denomination in ATMs. However, that has never happened and probably won't happen in the new few decades.

In Sweden which had no ~$20 banknote, the 100 kroner note is too small for ATMS. So they were used to the 500 kroner banknote ~ $60. They are going in reverse, where by next year the ATMs will now be stocked with 200 kroner banknotes. Most Swedes will find that bothersome, so they will be even more inclined to go to electronic payments.

Sweden also discourages cash purchases by the coin denominations. They have three coins. One is worth about 12 cents, one is worth 60 cents, and the final is worth $1.20 .
By next year the two smaller coins will be invalid, and will be replaced with three coins worth 12,24, & 60 cents apiece.

I think that the USA would discourage cash purchases by stopping production of all coins except dimes and quarters. People would use electronic payments just to avoid round-off.
Edited by PacoMartin
06/23/2016 10:29 pm
Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Bitcoins are immune from inflation because there is a fixed amount and no government can make more.


While they may be immune to inflation, a Bitcoin could theoretically zoom to $10,000 apiece or drop to $100. No government could let their currency be that volatile as it would destroy trade and tourism.

The fixed number of bitcoins has no practical meaning.
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TomSwift's Avatar
China
171 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TomSwift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The advantage of bitcoin is that it is decimal. If it goes too high, you just add a decimal place. Currently it goes down to a millionth of a bitcoin but it could go smaller. All transactions are done by the current currency conversion rate so it is no big deal.

Imagine a world where the different currencies are pegged to the bitcoin. Kind of like a gold standard. Not going to happen in a long time though since governments are not going to give up the control, unless it is a failed government. Imagine if Venezuela finally realizes that what they are doing is not working and decides to use bitcoins. Bitcoins jumped up in price when Greece and Malta had financial troubles since people in those countries looked to bitcoin to get away from government manipulation. No surprise that many governments have already banned it. They can't stop it though.
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TomSwift's Avatar
China
171 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TomSwift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh and for those who want a paper bitcoin, you can make your own.

https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/

Lots of fun. You can make a real million dollar bill if you wanted.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2845 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2016  11:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ PacoMartin Your analysis is very interesting. Which reminded me of an old news article about Canada's outstanding One Thousand Dollar bills. Where did they go?

In 2012 it was reported almost $1 billion were still outstanding, a favourite of the drug trade.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...minal-elites

I've snipped this from the Bank of Canada's 2015 Annual Report:

Another-Step-Towards-A-Cashless-Society-In-Canada

Just over $1 million, other denominations no longer issued. That suggests only about 1,000 of the $1,000 bills are now outstanding. From the perspective of Cdn banknote collectors, that's very few.
Edited by wildflowerAB
06/23/2016 11:45 pm
Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 06/24/2016  07:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Canada lists the $1000, $1 and $2 banknotes as "other" in their annual report. But a more detailed breakdown is available. For 2014

CAD $1.2 billion is

$820 million in $1000 bills
$210 million in $2 bills
$150 million in $1 bills

That would suggest that there are about five $1 bills that are keepsakes for every man woman and child in Canada. Or, more likely there are far less, and many have been lost or destroyed.

A banknote is like an IOU for the national bank. Until they have officially destroyed it, it remains an IOU. Most European countries make old banknotes invalid after a set amount of time and wipe the figures from their books. USA and Canada keeps the money as legal tender forever and essentially lives with the minor debt.

As per the news article, the outstanding pinkies were 1.08 million in 2010 and 950 thousand in 2011. So at the time it was written, there was about a billion dollars circulating.

Pillar of the Community
Canada
2845 Posts
 Posted 06/24/2016  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks PacoMartin for your clarification. I get it, I was confusing millions with billions. So the Cdn banknote total o/s is $75 billion and of that, $1.2 billion are denominations no longer issued. Not a lot of change since 2014 when $820 million in $1000 banknotes were outstanding, with only slightly over $126 million recovered since about year 2012.

Presently still a lot of $1000 bills "out there", appx 800,000 of them.
Valued Member
PacoMartin's Avatar
United States
411 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2016  12:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You will probably have hundreds of thousands of $1000 bills still in circulation in fifty years. They don't really wear out because they are not regularly passed around. Eventually they will become much more valuable as collector items and criminals won't use them any more.

The Canadian $1000 bill reached peak circulation of about 3.5 million, which is about the production number of the US$500 bill. Now that circulation of the US banknotes has been reduced to a few hundred thousand they are collectibles. A handful are turned in for destruction every year, but no one worries about them being used for criminal transactions. They are technically still "legal tender" but probably no one has tried to spend one in decades.

US high denomination banknotes produced
$500 3,943,708 of which 283,998 are still in circulation
$1000 2,675,016 of which 165,339 are still in circulation

Since Canada will never declare them invalid there is not a huge advantage to turning them in for destruction (in large quantities). They will recover a few thousand a year, but that number will drop as the years go by.
Edited by PacoMartin
07/01/2016 12:15 pm
Pillar of the Community
1cent's Avatar
Canada
1051 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2016  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1cent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As you can imagine, many governments do not like bitcoin and find it a threat to their power. Same with banks.


Many people don't even realize the financial root of many of the ills that plague society. Bitcoin places an unfettered means of exchange back in the hands of the people as it should be, and takes it away from those who sour entire economies to drive their own profits and achieve their own political ends.
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