New... Dan Carr 1964 Morgan Dollars!

Wow - what a debate!

Sorry guys - I just don't where the world will end whether of not a specific string of alphanumeric characters are assigned to these specific metal disks or not.

I guess if its important enough to get upset about, then we sure had better not call our pre-1964 US dollar coins "silver dollars," because they are NOT silver. We are dead wrong in calling them such, and we likely deceive the masses. Our dollar coins are cupro-silver dollars being 90% silver and 10% copper. B/c most people won't use Google to look up the actual composition, we are misleading them.

Come to think of it, we need to start a campaign about people calling Sacs and the Presidential dollars "gold dollars." I recall an actual news clip where the newscaster actually thought these WERE gold.


As to Bobby's question - when you hand the finished item to a person, what would the majority of people see it as? Let's face it, every raw material that gets processed into a final product is in the same boat. Is a nail truly a nail, or is it mined, crushed, washed, sorted, melted, molded piece of metal ore with a point and head on it used as a wood fastener? How can it be a nail?

A coin can be turned into a cotter pin b/c the term "coin" is not an absolute. The word "coin" means many things to many people - grammatically correct or not - this will never change.


This type of debate reminds me of people getting into fights because they KNOW their choice of football team is the best team ever, always will be, and despite the fact they also lose games (for which there is always a mistake made by the officials), they are THE ONLY team worth liking.

So let's go paint our faces funky colors, sit in a large outdoor arena, scream like maniacs when the coaches are obviously mistaken because our team can make no mistakes, and call it fun. Makes sense to me!


I never understood the logic or fun in the above mindset. But people have fun with it... so what? I am not about to get my feathers ruffled over it.

Hobby = have fun.

What sort of "scam" accurately informs people of all the relevant particulars prior to the transaction ?
Not a successful scam.

So a "Carr" fantasy-date over-strike is "as bad as any other counterfeit of knock off" and has the potential to do damage ?
The Carr pieces have dates that were never originally issued for that type. They are struck over genuine coins of that same type. They are widely recognized and discussed (this thread is an example). They are offered with full disclosure. Mintages and diagnostics are published. Numerous articles have been written about them (I've even written some of them for the numismatic press). Many prominent numismatists have acquired them for their permanent collections. That doesn't sound "as bad as any other counterfeit", or even a "counterfeit" at all.


The legal tender status of a defaced coin is murky and not well defined legally. The US Mint will redeem current mutilated coins by weight. Even a partially melted and/or fused block of coins can be redeemed by pro-rated weight of the block.

Take a legal-tender coin and flatten it with a hammer until the design is no longer identifiable. You can legally present this thing as payment to another party. You can claim that it is valid legal tender at the original face value without being guilty of any crime, including "uttering". However, the other party has no legal obligation that they MUST accept this (or any other) form of payment presented to them. Most likely, the other party would refuse the piece. As a result, the flattened piece of metal may still be a legal tender coin. But it has ceased to be a generally acceptable coin. There is a difference between losing the legal tender status, and losing acceptability status.

The fantasy date is the "signature". The date proves beyond any doubt that it is a "fantasy" piece.




If an "ill-informed" person is intent on spending a lot of money for a coin without knowing what it is or consulting an expert before buying, there is NOTHING that will save them. There are a million pitfalls that they could fall into, like buying a polished rare coin thinking they are getting a high-grade "gem".
The antidote is knowledge.

How's this for irony trout. The one time he did sign an overstrike with his DC mark, the 2009 "proofed" silver eagle. It was actually used against him in a compaint to the ANA in an attempt to strip him of his membership. A complaint that was found to be frivolous upon review btw.

The Daniel Carr products are beautifully made and they are a credit to his craftsmanship.
The problem however is that they look and feel Exactly like the real deal and that is why they are so potentially dangerous to the hobby.
Even Blind Freddy can see that these need to be easily recognisable to everyone and not just seasoned collectors because of the potential harm that these can have on the hobby as a whole.

I am a concerned collector that does not approve of ANY Counterfeit's, Copy's or overstrikes that have the potential to endanger the hobby.
Just because some government department deems these to be Legal doesn't make these ethical or safe, legality and ethics are two completely different animals.
I am genuinely concerned about these things and the potential that they have to damage the hobby also I am not the one flipping these things to make a quick profit like some others are.
I think it is quite rude of you to question why or if I have misgivings regarding these DC overstrikes and I am certain that I am not alone in this matter.

If some people are going to be fooled by counterfeits we sometimes refer to on this board as "obvious fakes", they're not only going to be fooled by fantasy dates, they're not going to know "DC" indicators. There are plenty of books that list the genuine dates/mint marks, which is far more helpful in calling out unofficial dates than anything helping recognize true counterfeits.

I can understand why some are bothered by these coins' existence, but the true counterfeits are a bigger problem. Not only are they more difficult to detect (I've seen a few threads here where "fake" was debated), but their melt value is minimal. At least the Carr overstrikes are still silver.

@trout
Sorry if my thinking is being hampered by my meds, I have a feeling I wil kick myself later for not thinking clearly.


Since Daniel's work is accepted in the hobby as definitely being valued at more than face value of the coins they are overstruck on, exactly how is someone, even a newbie, going to be hurt by them?


If they accidently take a Carr overstirke in change - they have gained a tremendous profit.

A counterfeit, if taken in change, means loss to the receiver.

The only thing I can think of at present is if someone comes up to a newbui with a "real" 1964-D silver Morgan dollar and asks (say) 5K for it. If the newbie is willing to drop 5k for something they have never looked into or been educated on - then they are foolish enough that nothing would save them anyway. The con man could probably stamp the word FAKE on the piece and the big spender newbie still would buy the coin after being told some ridiculous story like the letters "Fake" were put there as a tribute to the designer: Mr. Ima Fake.

What am I missing that I will later kick myself for posting this question for?