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 Replies: 22 / Views: 2,259 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Poll Question
I have been thinking about this topic for a while and I want to get the consensus of the group on warnings to ebay sellers who seek to sell illegal unmarked "numismatic imitations" and ship them to the US. Shipment of unmarked numismatic imitations of all types to the US are banned under the new Hobby Protection Act. This was recently signed by Pres. Obama and is law. The definition of imitation includes all items that are not genuine numismatic issues. So copies, replicas, fantasy issues, evasions, counterfeits, altered originals and coin like medals (bullion) are all included. The question arose about when or if warning should be provided to sellers BEFORE seeking to have ebay remove the items that are illegal to import into the US without being marked COPY. Please pick what you think are appropriate answers. You may pick up to three but can not pick both one and two. They are mutually exclusive.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12477 Posts |
If it's on ebay, I wouldn't waste time contacting the seller (you probably won't get a response anyway, at least not agreeable). Report the listing directly to ebay. In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
Edited by spru
12/09/2016 12:41 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
I think the real question should be if it will make a difference. As hard as it is to get ebay to look at blatant fakes when properly reported, I'm thinking these warnings wouldn't result in much happening. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
As long as ebay profits off the sale of illegal merchandise, there is zero incentive for them to regulate its sale or listing, since the government has shown zero interest in prosecuting them for hosting a marketplace for said illegal merchandise. It's not just coins. ebay is rife with counterfeits, forgeries, and knockoffs of everything from iPhones and PlayStations to purses and Nike shoes to perfumes and colognes to glassware and pottery and "antiques" and pretty much anything else you can think of. Not long ago, I was looking at listings for a particular 1930s Art Deco clock (of which I have an original, which is now fairly valuable) and to my great surprise there were over fifty up for sale at very low prices; not surprisingly, they were all Chinese knockoffs made of cheap plastic instead of the original Catalin, and running off AA cell batteries/quartz movements instead of the original spring wound mechanical movements. My suggestions for ebay, as far as coins go, would be to default to only showing ANACS, PCGS, ICG and NGC certified coins unless the viewer opts in to viewing uncertified coins and agrees to a disclaimer stating that there are a large number of fakes listed daily and that the buyer is 100% responsible for verifying the authenticity with the seller. Alternatively, another good practice would be to ban all listings originating from China, or from IP addresses within China, and furthermore, if any seller posts a counterfeit item for sale, that they should be banned permanently. In addition, if more than one person reports a listing as a suspected counterfeit, the listing should be automatically, and immediately, removed until and unless the seller can prove authenticity; if the seller cannot do so, they should be permanently banned. All sellers listing any items in any of the Coins categories should be required to read the Hobby Protection Act information you posted, SwamperBob, and agree with it before their listings will be posted live. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1005 Posts |
A big problem seems to be new accounts popping up that sell the fakes, so I certainly would not be in favor of warning new sellers as these are by and large the biggest perpetrators. I know Bobby can get the sellers taken down, but I wonder whether their IP can also be permanently banned from making any more ebay accounts or if this would be a bad idea. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12477 Posts |
If they're savvy enough, they're already using a fake or rerouted IP and will just change it.
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
llewellin ebay no longer terminates IDs like they used to. The punishment is cancellation of the items and the loss of posting fees. Effective for bigger sellers not much punishment for 1 or 2 items.
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Valued Member
Canada
458 Posts |
yes be careful coins offer with Chinese seller
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
1358 Posts |
Informing sellers actually means that you have a very positive attitude, which I like. It implies that those people post such items by mistake. Unfortunately, and the reason why I never buy via ebay: a lot of sellers actually don't have good intentions and ebay isn't acting against this business. I think a more proper 'punishment' would be to just ignore ebay until they become more reliable. If a lot of people do this and notify them, that should be more than enough incentive to do something with the problem: no buyers means loss of turnover. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts |
What you are asking should apply to ALL of these including US sellers and not just imported items.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
I'm for warning. First off, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt--unless it's such an obvious fake that it screams, maybe they don't know, and you're doing them a favor, getting an item off their page that could hurt their reputation. Second, if they KNOW they're selling a fake, they need to hear that people KNOW it, and they are about to get busted. I would also report to ebay. They might not care now, but if they get enough complaints, it MIGHT encourage them to do a better job policing. It may do no good at all, but if savvy shoppers call them on it, it may help a little to protect those who don't know as much. |
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Moderator
 United States
54282 Posts |
Quote:
I'm for warning. First off, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt--unless it's such an obvious fake that it screams, maybe they don't know, and you're doing them a favor, getting an item off their page that could hurt their reputation. It might be obvious to some, but might not be obvious to everyone. I have seen ridiculous fakes being sold by sellers I am sure do not know they are fake. There are lots of people that know NOTHING about coins and what they should look like, if genuine. Quote:Second, if they KNOW they're selling a fake, they need to hear that people KNOW it, and they are about to get busted. I would also report to ebay. They might not care now, but if they get enough complaints, it MIGHT encourage them to do a better job policing. ebay no longer suspends sellers selling fakes. The fake sellers know that, so warning them means nothing to them. They just (possibly) get the listing removed, and then they just list it again. Eventually the item sells or the person reporting it gets tired of doing it. ebay is in this for the money, not to actually stop sellers from selling (which stops ebay from getting money). Show your financial support of the Coin Community Family (click here)See my topic on Mexican Numismatic Medals (click here) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts |
Then I'm for telling them anyway, just to be a PITA, because they SHOULD be policing it.
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts |
I wonder if chocolate coins (with full explanation what they are) are legal to sell on ebay... (Are they even legal in the US in the first place?) Same question for the infamous "Not One Cent" pieces (I think they're called Hard Times tokens). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
january1may Your comment may have been in jest - however, I suspect that legally such a post would violate the letter of the rules if it was placed in the coin section.
twslisa and anyone else who thinks ebay should police sales - please read the following carefully. I think in the case of old ebay (ca 2008), the original intent was that the coin section would contain only genuine coins and all "imitation" items would be placed elsewhere (copy, replica etc.). That was the way the agreement between ebay and the ANA et ali of about 7 years ago was explained to me, when I started at ebay. As the various owners and upper level managers (especially the lawyers) changed, they altered things making the original agreement lose impact. The newest owner/management team has reverted to the even earlier ebay concept from over 20 years ago of "Let the Buyer Beware". That was the concept that ebay was specifically not an auctioneer - they were a vendor (an out of the loop middleman) providing a venue for buyer and seller to meet. Under this definition the venue is presumed to be unaware of specifics of what is being sold and more importantly is not capable of determining a case about counterfeit goods. This original concept shielded ebay from any liability for the sale of counterfeits by pleading ignorance about the subject. The ability for ebay to plead ignorance was that they had no one on staff (paid or unpaid staff) that had expertise in the field. That is why all 38 staff experts were let go on the same day. The company was eliminating the old agreement of seven years ago to staff a panel of experts to review cases of rules violations and fraud. However, under the new and "improved" version of the Hobby Protection Act 2016 - ebay may find itself liable as a middleman for aiding counterfeiters in the distribution and importation of counterfeit goods (specifically coins) into the USA.
Edited by swamperbob
12/10/2016 10:56 am
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts |
Quote:
january1may Your comment may have been in jest - however, I suspect that legally such a post would violate the letter of the rules if it was placed in the coin section. To an extent it was, though I really was wondering. However, I really don't want to be banned after so much time (is it even possible to be banned on CCF? I have no idea, but I don't want to be the test case), so can you please explain what exactly I did wrong, and how am I supposed to correct it? I didn't read the rules that carefully (they were kind of long), and even if I did, I would not recall such minor details months later. |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 2,259 |
Posted 12/09/2016 12:43 am
