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Cool "Wrong Monarch" Counterfeit 8 Reales On Ebay

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Pillar of the Community

United States
1666 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2017  7:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Appears to be contemporary, with the [wrong] bust made to look more worn than it is compared to the sharp detail on the reverse (PLVS VLT on ribbons shows no wear).

What do you guys think? :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Defect...p=true&rt=nc
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cara's Avatar
Uruguay
217 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2017  8:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cara to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't like the denticles on obverse, they appear to be cutted off, and the bubbles are red flag to me too. And look at the Carolus's nose, It makes him look like a parrot......mmmm yes I know Carolus IV was not a good looking man but this is too much
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2017  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't like the denticles on obverse, they appear to be cutted off, and the bubbles are red flag to me too.

As numismat noted, counterfeit...

A type known to and catalogued by the author Gurney...

Interesting example, presentable look to it. I was wondering whether the bidders thought it was something more... exotically valuable, led by what the seller speculated (like a Branch mint emission or perhaps a genuine mint pattern or error).
Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2017  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was wondering that too, if they were bidding on it as a genuine error coin or CC. Based on the price it can go either way, though I imagine a genuine error would be more valuable.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2017  01:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As indicated above, the coin is indeed a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit which I catalogued in my book. It is the GNL 1812 A / MoTH-001. There were at the time of publication (end of 2013) about 6 examples noted in my files. Since that time several others have been located. It is therefore a coin I now consider to be only scarce. All but the earliest strikes have a die chip near the upper left terminus of the 2 in the date. Over time as the dies aged many other similar defects developed.

This is a comparatively late die state example and the first noted to be significantly off center.

"Wrong King" counterfeits of Charles IV are very popular and it may be that it was purchased as a CCC. Riddell established a section in his book devoted to coins with the wrong king so this feature was of interest even in 1845.

These coins were struck manually in a screw press that had NO centering collar. The planchet was placed on the lower die (anvil die) by a human being. The strike force was created by a spin of a heavy counterweight on both ends of a steel bar several feet long. Now if I was doing the job of positioning the planchet, I would be very concerned that my fingers were not in the way when the dies came together. I might not be as concerned with on center positioning.

However, off center strikes are comparatively scarce in genuine coins of this series. Why is a difficult question to answer for a person of this day and age. You need to adopt the mindset of the time, a time of Kings. The King's money (that is what these coins are) meant that workmen had to get them right. Defective examples were melted. More that just a finger depended on getting it right. Seriously off center coins would have been melted (to avoid an insult to the monarch). In addition, the workmen were paid by total output of coins. So speed and precision were BOTH required. I expect that the fingers of the workman who sat before the press were the most expendable commodity.

Counterfeit coins on the other hand are often struck off center. They are also found struck twice and dies were overused (until deterioration made the coins look bad).

So as a general warning - look very closely at coins that have minting errors. They are often counterfeits.
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