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Counterfeit PCGS Holders

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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24172 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  2:06 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on ebay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.

The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.

The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).

PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of ebay's CCW Group, which monitors ebay for fraudulent listings and asks ebay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.

PCGS has called for ebay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.

PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on ebay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on ebay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit.

The PCGS Guarantees of Grade and Authenticity do not apply to counterfeit holders, but PCGS has a strong interest in assisting consumers in actions against any fraudulent sellers.

Sufficient differences exist between genuine and counterfeit holders such that PCGS experts can easily identify fake holders. Consumers are cautioned that coins that appear to be underpriced may be counterfeit. PCGS urges all consumers to deal only with reputable sellers who are willing to stand behind the coins they sell.

PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:

1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/
See limitations above
2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from ebay sellers in China.
3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?).
4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud).
5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true.
6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees.
7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.

The following list of coins and certificate numbers have been seen in fake PCGS holders:

China (1916) Silver Dollar, Y-332, Cert #10712316 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-677, Cert #11354470 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-678, Cert #11285683 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, Y-336.1, Cert #13835186 (valid)
China Republic (1912) 20 Cents, Cert #21981173 (invalid)
China (1916) Gold Dollar, Pn-44, Cert # 11072163 (invalid)
China (1923) Gold Dollar, Tsao Kun, K-677, Cert #11354470 (invalid spec, valid cert.used above)
US 1858-O Half Dollar, Cert #03884338 (valid)
US 1800 Silver Dollar, Cert #03859118 (valid)
US 1795 Silver Dollar, Off-Center Bust, Cert #22030856 (valid)
Mexico 1761-MoMM 8 Reales, Cert #05763936 (valid)

"Valid" means that the correct information shows up under Cert Verification

To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify Ron Guth at guthr@collectors.com. For more information, contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.

Original Article from PCGS Site
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Amazon99's Avatar
United States
2443 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Amazon99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:

1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/
See limitations above
2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from ebay sellers in China.
3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?).
4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud).
5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true.
6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees.
7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.


Seems like common sense to me. I wonder if they're going to make a new slab due to the counterfeiting.
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sure they will NGC is and if the were smart PCGS has had 7 months so far to prepare for this (Once the NGC slabs showed up last August they ha to know that their slabswould eventually be targeted as well.)
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trdhrdr007's Avatar
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We all knew this had to be coming. It's probably as easy(or easier) to make a fake slab as it is to counterfeit a coin. It seems to me that even with a new slab the problem will not be solved; the counterfeiters will just copy any changes.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
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14454 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
here are the pictures of a couple of them
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
here is the others
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
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jeremymh's Avatar
United States
543 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  8:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeremymh to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow these chinese are getting better and better at copying rare items.
Guns, toys, cards, and now coins!
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  8:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and yet one beside the original (note the cert number is the same) one from Heritage and the other from ebay
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I moved this here in the main area so it will get the maximum exposure, I (or another moderator) will move it back to the correct place once it dies down
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2008  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
here are a few more pictures from some Collector Universe members that were in contact with this ebay seller and posed as someone wanting to do business with them and he told them at that time he only had NGC and ANACS slabs but was working on a PCGS slab at that time, here are the pictures he sent them of his inventory so he could help him sell it
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders
Counterfeit-PCGS-Holders


Edit: It seems as long as Heritage keeps pictures of all their sales on their webpage all they have to do is go there and copy some legit numbers and the end consumer will end up paying for it, Please everyone beware of the slab and buy the coin
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muckeye's Avatar
Australia
661 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2008  06:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add muckeye to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quote "Seems like common sense to me"
Quote "Beware the slab and buy the coin"

I rest my case.
regards,
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amac44's Avatar
United States
3242 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2008  06:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amac44 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the post!
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
189311 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2008  10:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sad times these are...

I think I will be keeping to the coin shows and the dealers there that I have known for years.
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Yinzi50's Avatar
United States
716 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2008  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Yinzi50 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I suppose there is a law to punish whoever would distribute for those coins in US? The counterfeitors will use a distribution chain here in US, won't they? I image these counterfeit coins being shipped into US as illegal drugs .
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2008  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
from a report on CU there are fake US Gold coins being sold in China in fake PCGS slabs that actually look very close to the original. They reported that a guy was there and bought a 1 ounce gold Eagle for 50 bucks and brought it back, it was graded MS-70 and was very deceptive and could pass pretty close to a 70 here and original to someone not very familiar with the series like investors or newbie collectors
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eaglefoot's Avatar
United States
6326 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2008  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add eaglefoot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"IF" the FBI would decide to allocate some of their resources for this.......(they're so busy !)....I'm afraid these coins will be around for a "generation" or more....and maybe the "flood" hasn't even really begun yet either...
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