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Is This A 1797 S-121A Large Cent?

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United States
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 Posted 01/24/2017  09:45 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add LoveCoins813629 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello everyone,

Can someone tell me whether this coin is the 1797 1C S-121a or the 1797 1C S-120a and why? PCGS didn't list it on the holder?

https://mintproductsauctions.hibid....&ref=catalog

When I compare the pictures of the two varieties at PCGS Coinfacts, it looks to me like a 121a. I don't know how else to tell besides the dates.

http://www.PCGScoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/35894
http://www.PCGScoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/35897

Thank you!
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cipster's Avatar
United States
2364 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2017  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cipster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to CCF

It looks like an S-121a but I'm not an expert. I'm struggling with the picture quality.
Here's a couple of facts from my Penny Whimsy (Sheldon) book
1. S120 is wide date and s-121 is close date and often has a broken B.
2. S-121 PC is under left side of upright of B, HWH between E and R, and JHF under the center of T. All three seem to match. The S-120a doesn't match.

Key to abbreviations PC is point of curl at the top of the head. HWH is highest wave of hair. JHF is junction of hair with forehead.

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Edited by cipster
01/24/2017 2:23 pm
New Member
United States
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 Posted 01/24/2017  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add LoveCoins813629 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you! I've spent quite some time today looking through pictures of every auctioned 1797 plain edge reverse of 1795 I can find and reading the relevant parts of Breen's Encyclopedia of Early U.S. Cents 1793-1814, and I think it is a 121a or a NC-1. The spacing of Liberty is quite wide and the spacing of the date is even (indicating not 120a but either 121a or NC-1).

I'm struggling with determining whether the B is broken (I don't think so, but not 100% sure) and also whether the date is "Close" or "Medium". If it's medium date, normal B, it's NC-1 and if it's close date, broken B, it's a 121a.

Any insight on how to tell if it's close or medium date?
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2017  3:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well for starters it is NOT a rev of 95. PCGS screws up again.

There is only one type of 95 reverse in 1797. Look below the M in AMERICA, on the type of 95 there are two leaf points below the right foot of the A and two below the E there are no leaf points below the M This coin has two leaf points centered below the M. so it is NOT NC-1, S-120 or S-121. (The fastest pickup on the rev of 95 is the ends of the wreath ending in single leaves, but the picture quality isn't good enough to be sure on this coin. The gap between the ends of the wreath are also centered below the E, on this coin they are too far right.) The picture quality is too poor for me to bother wasting my time to try and determine which variety it really is.

Even if it had been S-121 the only way to tell 121a from 121b is by looking at the edge of the coin which they do not show. Even in hand on lower grade 121'sit can sometimes be questionable unless you know what to look for.
Edited by Conder101
01/24/2017 3:32 pm
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 Posted 01/24/2017  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add LoveCoins813629 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I actually own this coin so I can fill in some of the blanks. The edge is plain as plain can be. Without a doubt, it is plain edged. The ends of the wreath are indeed single leaves. When I looked at the picture of the 1795 on the PCGS Coinfacts page, the reverse seemed to match my coin, which was why I started concerning myself with the front and the variety.

Maybe I'll just send it back to PCGS and have them do the variety attribution and see what happens.

Do you happen to have insight into the medium vs close date. I can't find info on how to distinguish those.

Thanks for the help!
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2017  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Image from auction
Is-This-A-1797-S-121A-Large-Cent?
Image of 120a from Coinfacts (NC-1, S120, and S-121 all used the same rev die.)
Is-This-A-1797-S-121A-Large-Cent?
Look at the leaves below the M in AMERICA, they are completely different.
And it still looks to me like the right wreath branch on your coin ends in a double leaf.
Another major difference, look at the right wreath stem. On the 1797 rev of 95 it points at the right foot of the last A in AMERICA. On yours it points at the LEFT foot.

The plain edge is only important if the coin IS an S-120 or 121. They come with plain or gripped edges, all the rest of the 1797's are plain edge.

As far as the date widths I assume you are only talking about on NC-1, 120 and 121. I really don't like using descriptions like that because they don't really tel you anything and you still have to use comparison pictures. There really isn't that much difference between the widths of the dates on NC-1 and 121. On 121 the 97 separation is a little less than on NC-1. On 120 though the gaps between the 17 and the 79 are much wider, roughly 1 1/2 times the width of the upright of the 1. The gap between the 97 is slightly less than the width of the upright of the 1.

If you are looking for something that defines medium and close date for all the 1797 varieties I don't think there is any such thing.
Edited by Conder101
01/25/2017 4:25 pm
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