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The Thaler Legacy And Trade Dollars

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MauroM's Avatar
Brazil
15 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  4:18 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MauroM to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I am a bit fascinated after learning about the thalers. They were really world currencies, specially mariatheresiathalers and spanish reales, in my view much more international than today's dollars or euros, due to the metal base value. I am trying to build a list on the coins that are derived from the thaler, that is, the idea of a large (38-40mm) high silver content trade coin, other than the various thalers themselves, and problably start a collection on that topic. Can anyone help adding itens to this list and clear some questions?

- Germany: post-thaler 5 mark silver coins. I have a question, some wirters say that the thaler went on as 3 mark, and today thaler colloquially means 3 mark, however only the five mark coins of the time match the thaler.
- Netherlands: the rijskdaalder.
- Great Britain: the british silver crown.
- Sweden, Denmark and Norway: the dalers.
- France: silver ecu.
- Spanish: 8 reales coin.
- Portugal and Brazil: the 960 reis coins, the "patacão". Later when Brazil became an independent kingdom there were some 1000 reis equivalent coins, problably this little devaluation was for decimalization.
- Mexico and other ex-spanish colonies: the silver peso.
- USA: silver dollar.
- China: silver dollar, dragons, Yuan Shikai, Sun Yatsen
- Japan: 1 yen.
- Hong Kong: british Trade dollar
- French IndoChina: piastre de commerce

I dont know about the latin monetary union and its various 5 units, like 5 francs, 5 lire, etc. these are smaller than thalers, I'm not sure if they were used as thalers.
Any other coin should go on the list?
Edited by MauroM
01/28/2017 9:44 pm
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moxking's Avatar
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You might want to search for one of the "value transfer" signs that merchants prominently featured in their stores during a specific period of time.

Each common coin type had a "value" usually related to the pound, rather than the dollar, here in the colonial U.S.

I'm sure if you ask in the colonial section, someone could point you in the right direction.

Building a set of coins thus listed would be challenging, unique, and beautiful.
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NumisRob's Avatar
United Kingdom
17937 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  4:41 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great topic for a collection!

I would add the French ecu, worth six livres.
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  4:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Dutch were great traders during this era as well.
Maybe some of the Guilder silver coins could fall into this set ?
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mysilveryears's Avatar
United States
1888 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mysilveryears to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wikipedia has a very informative article on the history of thalers and their offshoots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler

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MauroM's Avatar
Brazil
15 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2017  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MauroM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, the french ecu is a nice match to the thaler. Added to the list.
I think the best ducth coin match is the rijksdaalder... the lion daalder was more used, but had less silver. Upon research, I found that some later 2 1/2 guilder silver coins were closer but a bit smaller than the thaler, like the ones in the latin monetary union.
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Slider23's Avatar
United States
4469 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You might want to pick up a used copy of "The United States Trade dollar" by Willem. The last chapter is about collecting international Trade dollars. With your interest in Trade dollars, I am sure you will find the book very interesting as there is a lot of information about international trade and the use of Trade dollars. For Example, the book notes that In 1918 the Italians tried to replace the Maria Theresa Thaler with a coin of their own for trade in East Africa.
Edited by Slider23
01/29/2017 1:57 pm
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johntookit's Avatar
United States
589 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johntookit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This book may be helpful to you.


The-Thaler-Legacy-And-Trade-Dollars
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jakes8's Avatar
United States
123 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2017  5:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jakes8 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am so glad that I stumbled upon this topic! Over the summer I had an obsession over the spanish colonial coins so this is extremely cool! Thanks for sharing!
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MauroM's Avatar
Brazil
15 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2017  11:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MauroM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After some research and using a search engine from a online catalog, found more coins in the thaler model. Updated the list. If someone knows another example not on the list, please contribute.

- Germany/German States: post-thaler 5 mark silver coins.
- Netherlands: the rijskdaalder.
- Great Britain: the british silver crown. Also silver crowns in colonies and related countries, like Australia, South Africa, etc
- Sweden, Denmark and Norway: the dalers.
- France: silver ecu.
- Spain: 8 reales coin.
- Italian and papal states: there were coins called Scudo, Crocione, tallero... and some more. Italian were very creative naming coins.
- Portugal and Brazil: the 960 reis coins, the "patacão", usually struck over a spanish 8 reales.
- Switzerland: they issued thalers but also a similar coin denominated 4 francs or 40 batzen.
- Malta: Scudo.
- Mexico and other ex-spanish american colonies: the silver peso. The only exception to the denomination peso apparently is Bolivia, which issued a 8 soles coin.
- USA: silver dollar.
- China: Dragon dollars,, Yuan Shikai dollar, Chinese Junk dollar
- Japan: 1 yen.
- Hong Kong: british Trade dollar
- French IndoChina: piastre de commerce
- Ethiopia: two kings in 1890-1900s issued large silver Birr coins for national use instead of mariatheresia-thaler.
- Eritrea: italian governement issued a "tallero"
- Belgium: the "patagon"
- Philippines: a silver peso, problaby based on the american silver dollar.
- Dutch West Indies: there was a trade silver gulder coin.
- Russian empire: various silver roubles, specially in the 1700s, were equivalent to the thaler.

Some countries issued only one coin similar to the thaler ou british crown, some of them rare: Cyprus (45 piastres), South Africa Boer Republic (5 shillings), Egypt (20 piastres), Poland (10 zlotych), Kingdom of Hawaii (dollar), Cambodia (silver franc).

There is also several coins from the latin monetary union, usually "5 units", like 5 francs, 5 lire, etc. these are slightly smaller than thalers, I am not considering them here.
Edited by MauroM
01/31/2017 11:47 pm
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hcmusicguy's Avatar
United States
814 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  12:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hcmusicguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Haiti - Gourde. I have an 1881 example, the reverse of which is my current avatar.
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plonker's Avatar
United States
462 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  1:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add plonker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From my current world silver crown collection and what I have sold off ebay
Italian states/ papel state - scudo/piastre
Italian states - 4 fiorini
Liechtenstein - 5 Franks
San marino - 5 Lire
Sweden/normay/denmark - specie daler
south africa - 5 schillings
Romania - 5 lei
Serbia - 5 dinara
Bulgaria - 5 leva
spain - 20 reals, 2 escudo
Bank of Ireland - 6 schillings / Trade dollar
Netherlands/dutch states - 3 gulden / 2.5 gulden
Britain - 2 florins
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plonker's Avatar
United States
462 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2017  1:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add plonker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and you forgot about Brazil's 2000 and 4000 reis :)
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jgenn's Avatar
United States
1156 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2017  3:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Malta, 30 tari, mid to late 18th Century, during the administration of the Knights of St. John (and their various other names).
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2018  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the Netherlands, the best choice would be the Leeuwendaalder (Lion Dollar 1575-1717, weight 27 gram, silver content 75%) and the Zilveren RIjder (Ducaton 1659-1798, weight 31 gram, silver content 94,5%). The Leeuwendaalder may have been the prototype of a heavy silver piece used for international trade.
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