Coin Community Family of Web Sites
300,000 items to help build your collection! Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Shop CCF Members on eBay!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

What Makes A Proof A Proof?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 1,471Next Topic  
Valued Member
Dhughesz28's Avatar
United States
105 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  11:30 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Dhughesz28 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
What makes a proof a proof?

Hi all. Another noob question, hope you don't mind. I was talking the other day with a family member and told her that I had recently gotten into coin collecting. We got to talking about proof coins and she was telling me that proof coins are made with the same die as all the other regular coins. The difference is the proof coins are the first coins produced by a particular set of dies. And after a while, the same die are used to produce the regular coins. Is this true or are proof coins minted seperatly?
My first project in coin collecting is putting together an MS69set of Silver Eagles. After looking at these for a while I was under the impression that these coins are minted as regular coins and proof coins seperatly with different sets of dies.

If someone could explain the difference between the two types, regular and proof, I would really appriciatre it!
Valued Member
Dockwalliper's Avatar
United States
342 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  12:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dockwalliper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Proof coins go thru a special process for producing coins of exceptional quality and brilliance. Proof coins will exhibit a full strike, mirrored surfaces, and sometimes a cameo effect. Modern Proof dies are specially prepared, with frosted devices and deeply mirrored fields.
Some early strike coins minted for circulation mimics the deeply reflective appearance of a Proof coin and are called "Prooflike".

Pillar of the Community
Bilbo's Avatar
United States
812 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  2:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bilbo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To quote RedBook:

How a Proof Coin is Made
Selected dies are inspected for perfection and are highly polished and cleaned. They are again wiped clean or polished after every 15 to 25 impressions and are replaced frequently to avoid imperfections from worn dies. Coinage blanks are polished and cleaned to assure high quality in striking. They are then hand fed into the coinage press one at a time, each blank receiving two or more blows from the dies to bring up sharp, high relief details. The coinage operation is done at slow speed with extra pressure. Finished Proofs are individually inspected and are handled by gloves or tongs.
Pillar of the Community
eaglefoot's Avatar
United States
6326 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add eaglefoot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've also heard that, out of MANY proofs produced........only the occasional/rare one will attain that extra "deep cameo" classification of condition so lusted after.....
Edited by eaglefoot
04/01/2008 2:48 pm
Bedrock of the Community
biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Eaglefoot,
for older proofs that is certainly the case but modern proofs are minted in a manner that it would be rare to not have a DCAM
Valued Member
st3rling's Avatar
United States
90 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add st3rling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for this question and the answers. This reminds me of a similar question I have so I might as well ask it:

How can you tell a proof is really a proof? I've been looking through rolls of pennies and obviously there are years where a proof was made in only one mint so those are obvious (a solid source for this would be appreciated). But aren't there years where the same mint released proof and non-proof coins? Or not? If so, how can you tell it is a proof when they no longer look like proofs?

I've been setting aside all the "S" mints just in case, and those seem to be rarer anyway, but any guidelines on what pennies to set especially aside (besides the pre-82 copper and errors which I can never seem to get my mind to grasp) would be appreciated. Thank you!
Edited by st3rling
04/01/2008 6:51 pm
Pillar of the Community
Prethen's Avatar
United States
3233 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  6:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Proof coins will typically have a very flat (not rounded) edge which is squared off...almost sharp. The devices will be also squared off to the field. This is all due to the striking pressure of the dies against the planchet. On later 20th century coins and onward, all Proofs should have deeply mirrored fields and no weak details (although I'm sure someone might be able to cite examples to the contrary). Also, expect the edge to have a mirror finish. 19th century Proofs (an area I somewhat specialize in) are a whole different ballgame with quality going all over the place depending on series, number minted, and length of the series.
Edited by Prethen
04/01/2008 7:02 pm
Valued Member
gbchaosmaster's Avatar
United States
328 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  7:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gbchaosmaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are right, about 1 in every 500 pennies I see has an S mintmark.

SIGNS THAT A COIN IS A PROOF COIN

1. If the coin is in a Mint Proof set, it just may be a proof.
2. You can see every bead of sweat on your hopeful face when you look into the fields of the coin. If you can the the pores that the sweat is coming out of, it's a DCAM.
3. When you walk out into the sunlight, the light being reflected burns a hole in a nearby tree.
4. It's cartwheel rolls out of the coin and out onto the street, where it races into infinity.

Just a few telltale signs there...

And regarding DCAM coins, they are rarer than the CAM coins, but not much. UCAM is a different story...
Valued Member
st3rling's Avatar
United States
90 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add st3rling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the response Prethen and GBchaosmaster. If I run across any penny that is deeply mirrored, no weak details, and I can see the details of my ugly face in it haha, I'll definitely hold on to it.

But I haven't yet, and instead have a lot set aside that have been heavily circulated but still wonder if they were once proofs. So I still would have to ask, is there a way to tell a proof from a non-proof if it is heavily circulated? Would it even matter at that point? Are there even year and mintages that the proofs and non-proofs only differ in look when they were first produced but heavily circulated look like one another? I think I'm probably definitely missing some important piece of info here. Sorry for such a newb question...
Edited by st3rling
04/01/2008 7:09 pm
Valued Member
gbchaosmaster's Avatar
United States
328 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  7:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gbchaosmaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Even if worn, a proof's devices still contrast the fields (assuming that it was a Cameo Proof). It is possible to have a PF50, PF40, etc. heck, you can have a PF3 coin. PF1?
Pillar of the Community
Prethen's Avatar
United States
3233 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It depends on the series, if the coin is worn. If too few business strikes were made and they made Proofs off of business strike dies or vice versa, then all bets are off if it's too worn. I know this as a fact as I'm dealing with just this very situation now. Several 3CN coins can be dastardly difficult to impossible to tell once they get below AU. I'm sure other series can be the same way.
Valued Member
st3rling's Avatar
United States
90 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  7:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add st3rling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, reading back through my posts, I think I am not wording my question right. Sorry for the confusion. Let me try one more time:

How can you tell this proof penny http://cgi.ebay.com/1957-Proof-Whea...ny_W0QQitemZ300210600487QQihZ020QQcategoryZ139805QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemhttp://cgi.ebay.com/1957-WHEAT-PENNY_W0QQitemZ290217929323QQihZ019QQcategoryZ39457QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Pillar of the Community
Bilbo's Avatar
United States
812 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2008  10:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bilbo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the answer is that there will be times when you will not be able to identify the proof coin, if it has been heavily circulated.

I suggest buying a RedBook (A Guide Book of United States coins by R. S. Yeoman). It has a wealth of useful information, and will identify year/mintmark combinations that HAVE to be proof.

Usually, a proof coin in circulation will have the sharp features discussed earlier in this thread and/or still have somewhat mirror-like surfaces, and can be identified in that way; but I'm sure there will be exceptions. By the time the proof coin gets to that point, unless it is a rarity in proof, it realistically won't matter that it is technically a proof coin.
Valued Member
gbchaosmaster's Avatar
United States
328 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2008  8:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gbchaosmaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I like the way you censored the word eB*y.

And by the way,
quote:
The only dumb question is the one not asked, and I have asked most of them... but I may have missed one.

Don't say your question is a n00b question, no question is dumb (unless you don't ask it ).
Pillar of the Community
Snooba's Avatar
Australia
1360 Posts
 Posted 04/03/2008  1:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Snooba to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

"Proof coins are the masterpieces of our craftsmanship. Clean, good quality steel is used to make proof dies. The die impression is grit-blasted with very fine zirconium sand to give the surface a frosted finish - the common term for this is sand-blasting. The surrounding background is then highly polished.

"Hand polishing of the sections of the die face is performed under a microscope and takes two to three hours. To achieve a mirror-like finish, different grades of diamond lapping paste are applied to the surface and polished with wooden sticks (usually soft birch wood). This is followed by polishing with a soft felt pad attached to a dental drill.

"The entire face is covered with clear tape and then, using a fine scalpel, the tape is cut away leaving the design exposed. This area is sand blasted again and given an even frosted appearance and a clean sharp profile around the impression.

"After polishing, the die is chrome-plated or titanium nitride coated to resist damage from minute foreign particles and to extend the die life. This in turn reduces the number of times the die is refurbished.

"Proof coins are manually and individually coined in a specially designed and air conditioned environment. Laboratory coats, hair ties, gloves, sticky mats on the floor, lint free material to wipe dies, and fans continually blowing air across the die in the coining presses are some of the measures taken to minimise the risk of blemishes on the coins.

"On each manually operated press, using forces of up to 360 tonnes, we can produce about 500 proof coins per day.

"Within the coining press a collar is used to restrain the blank. The size and shape of the collar determines the shape of the finished product.

"Operators, with gloves and/or tongs, place the blank onto the coining press and strike it up to 4 times. The number of strikes is dependent on the size and the depth of relief. The die is wiped with alcohol, to remove any dust, before the next coin is struck.

"The operator inspects each coin and then Quality Control randomly examines coins within every batch. If one fault is found the entire batch is thoroughly examined.

"Finally, proof coins made from bronze, cupro nickel, aluminium bronze and sterling silver are sprayed with a nitro-cellulose lacquer to protect against oxidation. The coins are inspected once more.

"Proof coins are usually packed into capsules and high quality display packaging; along with information about the coins."


(Taken from the Royal Australian Mint website)


Bedrock of the Community
biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 04/03/2008  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
"Finally, proof coins made from bronze, cupro nickel, aluminium bronze and sterling silver are sprayed with a nitro-cellulose lacquer to protect against oxidation.


Fascinating, I did not realize that RAM lacquered proofs for preservation. How long have they been doing that? I am almost certain that is not done in the US.
  Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 1,471Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.39 seconds to rattle this change. Forums