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1843 Mexico City 8 Reales Counterfeit?

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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
United States
4883 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2017  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, I'll concede that you shouldn't expect long term durability out of a $10 digital scale, and I've also experienced the sudden onset of innaccuaracy (or complete failure) you describe. But during its useful lifetime of such (and some styles seem much better in this regard than others) I've had excellent results in checking them periodically with standard weights as verification of their continuing utility. I'd further remark that although most have a calibration mode, that's a superfluous feature if they're simply becoming erratic.

What interests me is that all the coin shops I frequent (and these are really reputable places) have on the counter digital scales that are hardly better than what we're discussing, and they get years of constant use from them, through multiple validations by the state authorities. No shop I patronize seems to employ an Ohaus, unless it's in the back room.

Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
03/04/2017 09:03 am
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2017  11:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The simple reason for coin shops not using Ohaus scales is that no coin shop I know of actually checks Specific Gravity of anything. As I said above, electronic scales are fine for gross weight of coins and metals just not for accurate SG tests.

Scientific authenticators on the other hand do perform SG tests use far more precise scales. Typical of these are Ohaus types or cased analytical balances.

I believe every coin collector should know how to perform SG tests as a form of self protection.

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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
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 Posted 03/05/2017  08:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe every coin collector should know how to perform SG tests as a form of self protection.


You're "preaching to the choir" on that point with me. Not to belabor the point, but I'd add that maybe every dealer ought to have the capability for the protection of their clients. But obviously that's not going to happen across the counter, where dealers have to make snap buying decisions regarding material that walks in.

Colligo ergo sum
New Member
United States
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 Posted 03/06/2017  1:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thous to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello everyone. Thanks again for the valuable input!
I never really had a need for a scale before. My coin collecting went on hiatus around the year 2000, but I had been collecting mainly Indian and Lincoln Cents, with certain small peripheral interests (like these Spanish coins). I've been reading quite a few posts about early Mexican and Spanish coins, and I think that if I do go after them in earnest now I will need to get some good books and a good scale!

I took my Santiago coin to a coin dealer on Saturday. He said he could not determine the metallic makeup of the coin without shaving off a small piece, so we didn't do that. He weighed it though and got 26.62 grams.
It is non-magnetic.

I hope these pictures came out better than the last. The edge pictures were taken at 12-3-6-9 o'clock.


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1843-Mexico-City-8-Reales-Counterfeit?

1843-Mexico-City-8-Reales-Counterfeit?
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 03/08/2017  12:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The pictures are much better and the coin looks a lot more believable now.

I do note the presence of numerous small raised dots in the fields of the reverse die. These could be rust damage top the die. I see none that point to another method of formation.

The area at the top of the assayer initial D - is very odd looking and I am unable at present to come up with a satisfactory theory about how a die crack could produce what I see here. It appears to be some sort of repair to the die after a small part of the die chipped away. Have you examined the area using a binocular microscope? It appears to be a feature that is raised above the level of the field on the coin. In that case, it would be a depression in the actual die. The thing I can not resolve is the way it appears to be rounded. It looks like a tiny weld used to repair the die - but welding like that was not possible in the first half of the 19th century. Just makes me wonder.

I have studied far more Mexican edges than those from Chile.

This edge detail makes me rather concerned. The circles are in many cases not actually circles. They look like they are squared on the outside with a circle drilled into them. That edge on a coin from Mexico, Bolivia or Peru would move it into a "counterfeit" category.

Were you able to locate two overlaps? Are they of equal length and opposite one another?
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 Posted 03/08/2017  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thous to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Swamperbob. Thank you!
I have to say that spot at the top of the D never stood out like that until I enlarged that picture. I'll have to try to focus on it close up and see what's going on there. It does seem to conform to the shape of the D, and the missing part of the D on my coin seems to be larger than the missing part of the D on the coin with the same reverse die that Realeswatcher showed us. Is it possible that a section of the D filled in with bits of metal that were squeezed into the die crack? It also seems that the top of the R on Realeswatcher's coin is missing, but on mine it is complete. Of course, that would be exactly the opposite of what's happening to the D!

The edge design as you can see is a little bit messy. Scrolling down, my second and fourth edge pictures are opposite sides. There does appear to be a gnarled-up area of rectangles and circles on those two sides, but that's the best that I can see.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 03/09/2017  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting overlap - I was able to align your pictures at the same scale so that the edge overlap can be seen. It appears to be the same length and the overlap priority is correct as well. This points to the use of a two die edger (casting machine or edge mill). However, the shape of the circles remains a problem in my opinion. I would suggest that other collectors with the same date coins need to post similar pictures to see if the genuine edge was created from a matrix block or not.



1843-Mexico-City-8-Reales-Counterfeit?
Edited by swamperbob
03/09/2017 11:21 pm
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