Interesting 2 Reaels 1784 Counterfeit (Contemporary?) With A Cuban Ctmk.

Yes - to have both (i.e., countermark and host) as a counterfeit is a prize. These do not enter as Kleeberg CCC 2Rs as this counterfeit FAMILY only deals with Spanish American mints and not Spain. In my new book "Forgotten Coins" I do their final treatment for upcoming varieties roughly Varieties 100-150.

Nice high grade piece as we can tell this by the die polishing lines running NS in the obverse. Estimate ~ ($100-200) ... if properly cataloged.

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

(2) others... Note different positions (and fullness of stamp) on all (3) examples - clearly the stamp was applied separately after the manufacture of the "coin".

The coin is, of course, not regal - its incorrect "mintmark" apparently being an upside-down "JD", a correct Madrid ASSAYER mark for those years. Then regarding the stamp... while figuring these Cuba stamps is a bit challenging, I'd say this is pretty clearly a counterfeit stamp as well.

So - fake stamp on a fake host. Certainly old... looks like some honest wear is present across examples - I see no reason to think that these aren't contemporary counterfeits, produced expressly to pass in Cuba as the countermarked peninsular Spain coinage.

Many different CC varieties of the Cubas C/Sed 2R exist.

Realeswatcher, if you notice this thread (or if someone can get me in touch with him), I've been researching a series of counterfeit Madrid-mint two reales that I suspect may have been struck for importation to Cuba. I would love to see if you are aware of anything that could fit the bill.

Bumping this thread from way back as it came up in doing some searching on the 1784 cont. ctft. mold someone posted... Sorry in advance for an unfocused, rambling post; just some random thoughts on a specific area of contemporary counterfeits that I've never much explored simply b/c no one seems to care much (as reflected by market prices).

John, as is, these just don't bring nearly that. As coinworldtv had touched on, these in theory could/should be more valuable as they are colonial pieces for them. There just doesn't seem to be much interest in them either in Spain (CC 2R with or WITHOUT the counterstamp) OR from the Cuban community stateside... and obviously, the situation in the country itself doesn't help.

It's such a wide-ranging series... and hard to catalog, not enough research done, etc. It would really involve developing a strong grasp on the situation/pipeline of (illlicit) coinage from homeland Spain to the island, as Ardatirion seems to want to (have wanted to?) undertake. I want to say I've seen some writeup or publication on these at some point; if not, I'm sure some good specific knowledge could be cobbled together from various works.

Much like British contemporary counterfeit Spanish Colonial 8R, you also have the situation here where some of the known pieces come with or without the lattice stamp. And also, as John knows, there were a LOT of falsas de epoca of the peninsular portrait 2R produced (a whole lot of basically EVERY Spain coin from 1700-1875 was produced!!!)

I would speculate most of these were actually made in Spain and exported to Cuba rather than made there locally... but again, would have to really investigate the series to get an accurate picture.