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1882 S Morgan Dollar Heavy Die Scratches?

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 Posted 05/02/2017  8:54 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 24hounddog to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

I am asking for help with this coin. There appears to be several lines especially above and to the right of the date. not great pictures although when placed in the light just right more are visible. Only thing I can find is information on die scratches. Any information would be helpful. Thanks!
1882-S-Morgan-Dollar-Heavy-Die-Scratches?
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nss-52's Avatar
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 Posted 05/02/2017  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die scratches would be raised.

Damage scratches would be incuse.
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spru's Avatar
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 Posted 05/02/2017  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They do look like scratches but, as nss said, what kind depends on whether they are raised or incuse.
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 Posted 05/02/2017  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 24hounddog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Additional image if this helps

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spru's Avatar
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 Posted 05/02/2017  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From that picture, they look raised and they travel behind the devices. Both of those things point to die scratches.
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In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
Edited by spru
05/02/2017 10:10 pm
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chevelle7167's Avatar
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 Posted 05/03/2017  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chevelle7167 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those do look raised to me as well. I would say die scratches
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kanga's Avatar
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 Posted 05/04/2017  09:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Scratches.
And the way they run right up to the devices makes me think die polishing.
Normally that's done after a die clash but I don't see any evidence of that.
I'm certainly interested to hear other ideas.
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Cascade's Avatar
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 Posted 05/04/2017  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Check it against vams 5, 16, 17, 17a and get back to me
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 Posted 05/04/2017  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Morgan dollars, because of the large field surface area, are good for spotting die polishing lines. Mint workers, when dealing with new dies, would sometimes polish them up quite a bit more than required -- a matter of pride, or boredom, or just individual work ethic -- who knows. The first coins struck from these dies would often have deep mirror surfaces (prooflike) and that made the die polishing lines much more visible. The San Francisco coins of 1878 to 1882 are well-known for this "feature", having a large number of both prooflike coins and coins with large amounts of die polishing lines, as well as better-than-average strikes in most cases. At other mints, such as New Orleans between the mid 80s to mid-late 90s, strike pressures were reduced in order to lengthen die life, and the workers tended to be somewhat more apathetic in their jobs, resulting in lots of poorly-struck coins with dull luster, even when new.

As the dies wore, and developed chips, cracks, and clash marks, sometimes they would be polished a second time to remove the witness marks. However, this 2nd polish tended to be pretty rough on the dies, and coins from these dies will not have the mirror prooflike surfaces, but will still show heavy die polishing lines, especially in common clash areas such as the upper right inner wreath on the reverse, between the date and the lowest hair curls, or the area in front of the neck and lips. Sometimes the polishing would be so severe that major design features would be obliterated, having been polished away from the dies, creating the "overpolished" VAMs.

Because the areas on the coin that are raised are actually lowered or incuse on the dies, the polishing lines tend to affect mainly the fields, and not the devices. Looking at the polish lines under a microscope or strong triplet loupe will show you that these lines are actually slightly raised above the surrounding field; compared to post-mint damage such as cleaning or scratches, which are LOWER than the surrounding field and often cross the devices.

Another thing to look for is that most (but far from all!) die polishing lines run roughly parallel to each other and are oriented on a relatively similar axis. PMD polishing/cleaning tends to be much more random and much less uniform in nature.

Since they are in shallow relief as it is, the polishing marks tend to disappear pretty quickly if one of these early-state coins gets into circulation. Below AU most of the early die state polishing marks will be long gone, and only the marks left by overpolishing / clash-crack removal will remain, and even those wear off below F+/VF where the devices start to merge with the fields.

Hope this helps. Any errors are mine alone!
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