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Unidentified Medieval Coin #1 - Riga?

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 Posted 06/10/2017  2:15 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
While visiting a weekend market today, I found a $3 bargain bin for small medieval coins, and bought a few coins I thought were particularly interesting.

Unfortunately, contrary to my expectations, I wasn't able to properly identify and attribute even one of those coins.

As such, I'm posting the coins from that bin that I was able to take a remotely half-decent photograph of on CCF.

This is my first thread in this bunch...

Unidentified-Medieval-Coin-#1---Riga? Unidentified-Medieval-Coin-#1---Riga?
Unidentified-Medieval-Coin-#1---Riga? Unidentified-Medieval-Coin-#1---Riga?

Sorry for the downright crappy pics. Smartphone camera, tiny coin (15x14 mm).

The design on the side that comes second in those pictures looked like a pair of crossed keys to me, which is why I guessed Riga for the attribution.
Couldn't find a match for the other side, however.
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
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 Posted 06/10/2017  2:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not much to go on, J1M. Could it be a patard of the Comtat Venaissin/Avignon? Similar to:

Unidentified-Medieval-Coin-#1---Riga?
Edited by Kamnaskires
06/10/2017 3:31 pm
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 Posted 06/10/2017  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Not much to go on, J1M. Have you looked at the Comtat Venaissin?
That looks like it, yes!
(Sadly there's probably not enough detail left to identify the specific pope...)

I checked Riga (and Bremen, just in case) on Numista and in one or two other places, and looked up crossed keys on Saurma. In retrospect I should have looked up crossed keys on Numista too - it would have brought up Venaissin directly.


In the meantime, I managed to identify one of the other coins. Just as I expected, it's a Polish solidus from the 1620s, apparently Bydgoszcz mint. The last digit of the date is sadly covered up by patina (what's left looks like a 9, but that's apparently not possible).

The rest of the 6 coins include:
- a crowned monogram, probably RC or RG, with some visible legend around, other side covered in so much patina that I'm not sure if I could see anything... the seller recommended me a cleaning method, but I immediately forgot it... and I still can't find a match to the monogram; 15 mm
- something with a crowned H surrounded elsewhere by 3 fleurs-de-lis, some legend faintly visible around, almost nothing visible on the other side; 16x14 mm
- a really nice bronze, on one side griffin to right, surrounded by legend, on the other side a short cross, surrounded by more legend; if Saurma is to be believed, this is a witten from Pomerania, but I wasn't able to find a more specific match; 14 mm
- and what appears to be a Denaro Minuto of Genoa, far too dark, worn and just plain tiny to be identified any further than that; ~13 mm
(I might post some photos if/when the pics that I emailed myself from my smartphone actually arrive...)

Also from the same dealer (only $2 each instead of $3, ironically enough), a very nice AE4 of Helena (PAX PVBLICA, Tesorillo 58, possibly RIC 49) and a worn pul of Jani Beg Khan, Golden Horde (the rosette design, which is so instantly recognizable that I've been wondering what it was for months after seeing such coins in some other bins).
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 08/02/2020  3:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I checked Riga (and Bremen, just in case) on Numista and in one or two other places, and looked up crossed keys on Saurma.


For future searches, denars (12 mm) and trzeciaks (ternars, 15 mm) of Poznan / Posen under Sigismund III also have crossed keys on one side (and Polish-Lithuanian emblems on the other).
Trzeciak: https://wcn.pl/archive/138401?q=mia...%2C+trzeciak
Denar: https://wcn.pl/archive/160952?q=mia...%84%2C+denar

Where you are based, I agree that Riga is a good first guess because they issued A LOT of solidus with crossed keys late 1500s to mid-1600s.
Edited by tdziemia
08/02/2020 5:38 pm
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 08/02/2020  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob you have the eyes of an artist, I couldn't see any detail until you pointed it out with the match.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 08/02/2020  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@echizento, this three year old thread popped up when I was doing a search, so I added my Two Cents' worth.

But based on what I've seen recently, Bob hasn't lost a step on finding patterns in places where the rest of us just throw up our hands.
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 Posted 08/04/2020  06:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Might as well mention what the other coins were - or, at least, what I think they were, since I'm not near them to check at the moment...


Quote:
- a crowned monogram, probably RC or RG, with some visible legend around, other side covered in so much patina that I'm not sure if I could see anything... the seller recommended me a cleaning method, but I immediately forgot it... and I still can't find a match to the monogram; 15 mm
I no longer recall the details, but I do recall being disappointed that it was also Polish.
Some searching suggested a Wilno mint solidus of Jan II Casimir.

Quote:
- something with a crowned H surrounded elsewhere by 3 fleurs-de-lis, some legend faintly visible around, almost nothing visible on the other side; 16x14 mm
France, liard, 1580s. This or very similar.

Quote:
- a really nice bronze, on one side griffin to right, surrounded by legend, on the other side a short cross, surrounded by more legend; if Saurma is to be believed, this is a witten from Pomerania, but I wasn't able to find a more specific match; 14 mm
The problem with Saurma is that it only covers coins that are covered in Saurma.
...OK, that came out slightly wrong. The point is that, if a coin is actually from a place (e.g. Netherlands) and/or a time (e.g. the mid-17th century) that Saurma doesn't happen to cover, trying to search for it in Saurma can actively mislead.

In this particular case, what I had was in fact a Genoan quartaro, as was immediately pointed out to me once I actually posted the photos.

Quote:
- and what appears to be a Denaro Minuto of Genoa, far too dark, worn and just plain tiny to be identified any further than that; ~13 mm
Another quartaro, in fact; "Denaro Minuto" is just what Numista happened to call it.
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