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1880-P Morgan- Die Cracks/Letter Transfer T?

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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  02:10 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Die Cracks on the Reverse-
The larger one starts at the second S in States, and goes down to the S in Trust
A smaller one is next to the bow.

*Check the pics by the number one- what is that next to the one?

An upside down T from the reverse, or is it a faint number 1 next to the real one, or is it nothing at all?

I sent these pics to Mr Lee for his opinion/expertise on this also.

Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880diecrackjpeg1.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880diecrackjpeg2.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880diecrackjpeg3.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880diecrackbowjpeg1.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880transferredTjpeg1.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880transferredTjpeg2.jpg
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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FYI
***This is the same coin that I had questions about Postmint Damage*******
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j_h_s's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  04:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add j_h_s to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There's too much going on with the coin, including post-mint damage, for me to make obverse or reverse of !
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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  09:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mr Lee just said the same thing- too much post-mint damage etc to figure anything out- Die cracks are not attributable, die breaks are, and this is not a break.
I guess sometimes: "Oldies are NOT Goodies" (LOL)!

This coin also has a die clash from the right side- eagles feathers running directly up into the letter N of IN God Etc. It looks like its the neckline from the obverse, plus die chips by the arrows and lord knows what else might be on it, but its too hard to really determine everything.


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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the definition of a die break is:
Fracture in a die that can range from a small "CRACK" to sinking of a major portion of the die AND

A die crack is fine lines of RAISED METAL that are transferred to the coin when the die cracks under pressure

If you look at these pictures again- is this not a Die Break and not a Die Crack?
There is a small gap between the line indicating more than just raised metal.

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NGiles's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  10:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NGiles to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "gap" in the line is actually indented into the coin. This would indicate post mint damage and not a crack at all, to me it just looks like a scratch. I am intrigued by the possible clash next to the 1. It looks raised from the field which would imply transfer, but the amount of damage makes it difficult to determine whether it really is. It does look like the bottom of the t, but after comparing it to clash diagrams, the die would have to have been rotated. Just for curiosity's sake, I would check your coin for die rotation.
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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks.

I do not have a tool (Roto-Flip etc) to check die rotation precisely.
Is there a manual way to do it without a template etc?
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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are closer pictures-


Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880MaybeaDieBreakjpeg1.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880MaybeaDieBreakjpeg2.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880MaybeaDieBreakjpeg3.jpg
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Image: 1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T? 1880MaybeaDieBreakjpeg4.jpg
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Do you still think this could only be post mint damage?

This sure looks like a break to me, given the definition of die break.- its not a crack-no raised metal- unless it was worn off over the years- but there are openings between the lines that are clearly there and the whole thing runs from the top of the S in state"s" down under the O of OF and crosses over the base of the F and down into the S in Trust- its a continuous line.

The more I look at this coin, the more things I'm seeing- it has a die clash from the Eagles right feather straight up into the N of IN God etc.- it has a die chip near the arrow tips on the reverse as well- just ashame its not a better specimen grade wise.
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NGiles's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  10:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NGiles to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your pictures confirm to me that this is post-mint damage. you can see how the line is scratched into the surface of the coin, there is even residue in the scratch which discolors it. Die cracks and die breaks are actually the same thing, only the die break is more severe and there can be field displacement. Here are a couple of pictures of some die cracks that I have. You can see they stick out from the coin. If you look on Vamworld for some die breaks, they have some nice pictures of field displacement.


1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T?
1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T?
1880-P-Morgan--Die-Cracks/Letter-Transfer-T?
Edited by NGiles
04/21/2008 10:14 pm
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NGiles's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  10:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NGiles to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a nice example of die breaks. You can see how the field by the date is displaced where the die broke.

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+VAM-3T


You can check the coin for die rotation by simply flipping it over. Hold the coin looking at the reverse with "In God We Trust" horizontally level. flip the coin over and the obverse should also look level. You can also use one of those cardboard coin holders. place the coin in it with either the obverse or reverse squared up with the holder, flip it over and see if the other side is aligned.
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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 04/21/2008  10:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah- I agree, no die breaks- and the coin seems level so I guess thats nothing next to the one also- oh well- I'll just keep trying etc!

Thanks again.
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