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Looking For Coin Collectors For A Story

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ratio411's Avatar
United States
1208 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2008  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratio411 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What Jays-Dad says!

I have been collecting since childhood...
About 30 years now, and unless you really
know what the H-E-double-L you are doing,
you will lose.

If this was a great investment, you'd think after
30 years I'd be rich!
I've won some overwhelmingly, but have lost the same
or more overwhelmingly.
Personally, I don't think this is an investor's area
unless it is based on precious metals speculation.

Besides, we don't want investors coming into our hobby
and messing with it up like they did the real estate market!

Anyway, the time to buy coins is when precious metals are
down, not up.
Edited by ratio411
04/23/2008 11:36 pm
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j_h_s's Avatar
United States
1934 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2008  07:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add j_h_s to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sell coins on ebay....lots of them. I'm not a "dealer." If you ask me a question, I answer it (the question, not some dissembling b.s.) succinctly. Only once in 150 transactions have I had to issue a refund (and it was in part) because one of 28 coins in a set had a broken capsule and collateral tarnishing I overlooked.

I think there are two different impetus for buying coins on line, particularly on ebay.

1. Bargain hunting (this is where the, "if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't true" applies

2. Coin buying (at fair market value)

When you buy from a dealer, you're going to pay fair market value almost no matter what. You're almost always going to pay the appropriate cost/value of a coin.

Regardless of the seller, if you dont ask questions and are clear about what you're buying and what the refund policy is, caveat emptor.

If the seller will not or does not answer EVERY question within a day, I'd pass.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2008  11:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
saiyo: WELCOMOE TO THE FORUM. As already noted you could spend a little time on the search parts of forums such as this one for such information. Also, not to advertise other coin forums but there are many other ones you could do the same with. With the PCGS forum there are well over 20,000 members for example. Then there is the NGC forum, Coin People, Coin Talk, etc. I know it may take a little time but with lots of great research with numismatically educated people you could end up with a great story or may even a series of stories. Anther idea is you should try to visit a coin show and talk to dealers in person.
By the way how come all the reporters on the WSJ on TV are so good looking?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2008  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hate to trot out that old cliche saying, "fraught with peril," but such is genuinely the case with online coin purchasing be it with collecting or investment in mind. Buying online is not like walking into a store - you never have any physical contact with the seller, and the only evidence you have of his veracity must be found on the Internet. A scammer's website looks just as professional as a reputable dealer's.

The scammers get this. They're not at all unintelligent, just sociopathic. They will take your money, they will sell to you at an unrealistic price because you don't know better, and you will be hard-pressed to ever find any compensation for your loss because they're gone as quickly as they spring up.

Numismatics is not for the faint-of-heart these days. A significant percentage of dealers will cheerfully charge you exorbitant prices, if not blatantly rip you off, because of the transitory nature of online commerce. Your only weapon against them is knowledge. This is more important in our hobby than just about any other form of investing, because of the subjective nature of values involved. Rare coins are worth money because A) they are physically rare, and B) (more importantly), people consider them collectible. These are the two intertwined facets of coin values, and absent one of them, your investment is guaranteed to fail in the long-term.

If you are to impart any wisdom at all to your readers, saiyo, make them understand that forewarned is forearmed. Believe nothing, not even your own eyes, because in the electronic age a picture is whatever the person at the keyboard feels like making it. Which is the nicer coin, below?

Looking-For-Coin-Collectors-For-A-Story

Looking-For-Coin-Collectors-For-A-Story

Remember, condition is critical to value. The top coin is worth about $100. The bottom coin, to look at it, about $3000.

They're the same coin, and that was a ten-minute job on my part. If I really wanted to take you, I would have put considerably more care into doing it right, especially with $2900 of pure profit on the line.

It is absolutely imperative that any inexperienced potential coin investor avail themselves of the cumulative knowledge to be found on forums like Coin Community. There are many highly-reputable online vendors - I do 90% of my own buying with them - but you can't identify them unless you ask someone who already knows. There is no definitive database, nor could there be.

Do I sound pessimistic? Probably. I have good reason.
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Dillon's Avatar
United States
240 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2008  7:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dillon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
this topic might be interesting for your story

https://goccf.com/t/27792
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2008  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also as to on line dealers you may want to check out how many are actually coin dealers with an actual coin store. Probably the majority of on line dealers are just that, on line dealers. There are those that have coin stores and you would assume that those are the more trustworthy dealers to do buisness with. My experience is that that is far from the truth.
In your story you may want to point out that the so called prices of a coin is far from the price of the coin. For example if you have a coin that everyone tells you is worth a hundred dollars, when you go to sell it is when you find out the real value. Similar to selling a used car, house, boat, pencil, etc.
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2008  2:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Rare coins are worth money because A) they are physically rare, and B) (more importantly), people consider them collectible. These are the two intertwined facets of coin values, and absent one of them, your investment is guaranteed to fail in the long-term.



What a cogent observation. There has been such an emphasis on coins as "investments" that it has put the proverbial "cart before the horse". The frenzy of regarding coins as investments has resulted in a bit of self-fulfilling volatility in certain coin series, especially for top-tier slabbed coins. Another unfortunate result has been the growing hazards one must avoid, such as slab forgeries, coin forgeries, doctored coins, "market grading" and many investor scams to name a few. For some key coins, the price differential between a grade has become so dramatic as to tempt everybody to nudge grades higher--whatever it takes for higher margins. Coins have become like stocks, versus something to understand and admire for their idiosyncrasies. Eventually, I suspect this house of cards will implode and once again the collector will define the hobby--and ultimately the value of coins and slabbing.
Edited by KurtS
04/26/2008 4:41 pm
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m9frank's Avatar
United States
628 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2008  4:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add m9frank to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hurray for SuperDave! He proves no coin can be accurately judged by a photo.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2008  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the kind words, guys.

It should be noted that, counterintuitively, the better the photo, the easier the deception. The sharper your focus, the more pixel-clear the divisions between "good" and "bad" areas will be, making the defects easier to mask. My original shot of that coin was 2000 pixels in diameter; I could have easily replaced details pixel-by-pixel and obtained a 1000px (half-size) image of a coin which anyone here would have called MS66. Furthermore, the color will be more consistent throughout, allowing you to transplant coloration more easily. Had I planned on a true deception with the 1904, I would have shot it under one light instead of two, leaving more of the surface in shadow while keeping it sharp enough to convince anyone that it was a "good" shot.

There are two main avenues for the coin investor, saiyo, each with their own unique hazards.

First are the bullion coins, American Eagles, Krugerrands, etc. These bullion-only coins tend to trade at some small premium over their actual metal value, and are less subject to price inflation in that their value is more easily defined. However, this arena has a greater proportion of fly-by-night "dealers" whose inventory is the scam itself - you may send money, but you'll never see the coins. There are dealers who will refuse to fulfill your order if the price of the base metal rises much during the transaction process, as well.

Second are the collectible rarities. You had best be a strong swimmer before you jump into these waters. As I mentioned before, condition plays a very important role in the value of all but a very few extreme rarities - the term we use is "conditional rarity" and can be illustrated by one particular coin: the 1884 Morgan dollar issued by the San Francisco Mint. Circulated versions of these are common in the market. Coins having seen very little circulation, referred to as Almost Uncirculated (forgive me if I belabor the obvious; I'm unaware of your specific level of knowledge), bring a couple hundred dollars each, being rather rare. 1884-S Morgans which have not been in circulation are significant rarities, bringing multiple thousands of Dollars each when they come to market. An MS64 1884-S Morgan is a $100,000 coin.

This illustrates one of the prerequisites for successful rare coin investing: grading ability. The ability to grade accurately is not learned quickly, and each individual series has its' own particular features which must be understood by the grader. The fact that I'm comfortable grading Morgan dollars in no way qualifies me to grade Lincoln Cents, and I do not attempt to.

On the subject of Lincoln Cents: the 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent is a very popular "investment" coin, enjoying great popularity among collectors and bringing a 4-figure price in Uncirculated condition. I believe 484,000 were minted, and a large number of them remain, having been held by the original owners. Below, I present my 1905 Jamaica One Penny, one of fewer than 50,000 ever minted and certainly among the finest remaining extant:

Looking-For-Coin-Collectors-For-A-Story

I paid less than $100 for it, from a dealer who knew precisely what it was worth. My point? "Rarity" and "value" are not necessarily congruent. There are more than a few truly rare coins which carry lesser value than more-popular and more-common issues. The hopeful rare coin investor needs to be aware of the true street value of his coins, rather than just seeing a low mintage number and naturally assuming high intrinsic value as a result.

Next, the collector/investor needs to understand the Third-party grader ( TPG) system, the independent companies which authenticate, grade and slab coins. There are, in my opinion, only three companies whose opinions can be consistently trusted: PCGS, NGC and ANACS. A fourth, ICG, is currently in a state of upheval and I'm in "wait and see" mode with them. Of those, PCGS coins tend to bring the highest resale value, the result (in my opinion) of perception rather than any measurable advantage in quality.

A few other grading firms may be considered honest yet somewhat lacking in consistency and believability across the board. This puts the onus of grade evaluation on the perspective buyer, rather defeating the purpose of a TPG.

In addition to those mentioned above, there are a great number of what we call "basement" or "alphabet" slabbers, people who purchase plastic enclosures and encapsulate coins with grades totally unrelated to their true condition. I do not exaggerate when I say that there are more coins on the market in these slabs than in the reputable ones; ebay is especially notorious for them. These frauds will encase plainly-circulated coins and call them Gems, and the unwary collector will cheerfully throw their hard-earned money at the seller based on incomplete knowledge of the hazards.

Maybe not daily, but at least weekly, someone here at Coin Community has to break the news to a new collector that they've just been ripped off. It's that common.

I have more to say, but it's time to give my fingers a rest.
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CoinGeek's Avatar
United States
58 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2008  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinGeek to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Investors need to understand the market and execute transactions with reputable sources like any commodity. The former is tougher to come by than trading grain futures. Within the field of coin and paper money investments their are hundreds of areas of expertese to choose from. For executing transactions, if it must be on-line, there are plenty of ways an investor could go but e-Bay would be at the bottom of the list.
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JohnAP's Avatar
United States
245 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2008  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnAP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SuperDave.....would you care to share your trusted sources? :) You can email me anytime, and Thanks for all the helpful information!
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