Spain 1721 Two Reales - Weight ? - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 6 / Views: 3,859
Oldwormwood New Member United States 20 Posts	Posted 08/18/2017 08:35 am Hello. I recently purchased and received a 1721 Two Reales from an ebay seller in Spain. The coin I received weighs 5.26 grams, and the Krause catalog states that the actual weight should be around 6.7 grams. Another issues is that the coin has obviously been cleaned. The seller's photos showed a much more toned coin - what I received is "shiny" and has obvious hairlines. I contacted the seller, and explained the weight difference and cleaning. His reply was that the difference in weight is due to circulation wear. The coin does show some wear, but in my opinion not that much to warrant more than a difference of 1.5 grams. There was no mention of the cleaning. The seller did offer to refund the auction price once I send the coin back to him. So here is where I am. I paid about $45 for the coin, and shipping it back will cost me at least $10. The cleaning does not bother me so much, but the weight difference is sending up a red flag. Is it likely that a coin in this condition could have such a low weight? Do you think this coin is genuine? Jonathan Report this Post to the Staff

colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 08/18/2017 10:32 am Perhaps it could be paktong or German Silver or a debased silver issue with copper. Do a ring test of the coin and compare it to 90% silver coin. Report results here ... See my current E-Bay listing at seller: johnmenc for German Silver/Paktong background on a Cross Pistareen (earliest reported to my knowledge). Its not wear IMO ... the tone pitch of paktong or German silver is LOWER than 90% silver issues. It rings like a bell tone and a lower pitch than 90% silver. Larger images would also help. JPL Edited by colonialjohn 08/18/2017 10:34 am Report this Post to the Staff
Oldwormwood New Member United States 20 Posts	Posted 08/18/2017 11:09 am I did the ring tone test with a worn US silver quarter. The Two Reales had a slightly lower tone, but not considerably so (and not anywhere as low as a similarly sized steel washer). The diameter of the coin is 27.2 mm, and it is not magnetic. Here are some larger photos of the obv and rev. Thanks, Jonathan Report this Post to the Staff
Veton Valued Member Spain 108 Posts	Posted 08/18/2017 2:10 pm I think that theoretical weight for 2R from Segovia mint must be 5,97 near 1721 (richness .8125). You must consider that 1/2, 1 and 2R struck in peninsular mints were "provincial silver" issued only for internal circulation (Spain) not for international trading, so authorities were not so strict than with 4 and 8R and variations in weight are usual. I think that weight only cannot said us if it is genuine or not. v. Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 08/18/2017 2:35 pm The weights stated in Krause for peninsular Spain 2 Reales (milled shield aka "pistareens"... and bust) are, as discussed previously on here, patently incorrect. While it is of course misleading, it's a good life lesson to not blindly follow KM like the word of God and actually learn about the coin(s) in general. Search the archive on here for those threads. Note particularly that for the early 1700s up to about 1730 or so - while there are indeed a large amount of contemporary counterfeits of these years - the weights of seemingly genuine regal pieces are found to vary quite a bit lower than the 6.0 grams or so that they "should" be. It seems often they were cheating even more than they meant to cheat... ================= As for cleaning... the Spaniards often don't know of that term (even the well-known numismatic houses). That said, ANY pics should have made it clear that this piece has been cleaned - if they didn't, you have to get better at interpolating photos. Report this Post to the Staff
Oldwormwood New Member United States 20 Posts	Posted 08/18/2017 6:12 pm Thank you all for your replies. I absolutely agree about the data in the Krause catalog. Krause is a certainly comprehensive resource, but it contains known inaccuracies. I would never consider the information in Krause to be wholly definitive, but more as a good starting point to be used with other sources such as the opinions on this board. In fact, what made me consider the authenticity of this coin based on its weight was Swamperbob's post on 6/8/10. Questioning the weight, of course, requires having a practical baseline to compare it to. Maybe that is a bit of a moving target. As far as the discrepancy in color, I have attached the seller's photo. I think the coin is depicted as being much darker than what I received. But if the coin seems authentic (or is a contemporary counterfeit), then I might just keep it. Report this Post to the Staff
colonialjohn Pillar of the Community United States 1757 Posts	Posted 08/23/2017 12:27 pm If you look at PPU in Philippus and over the corresponding denticles in your photo we see what appears to be a break in a wash of silver over a base alloy probably of high copper content. Probably mercuric silvering wash over copper. John Lorenzo United States Edited by colonialjohn 08/23/2017 12:28 pm Report this Post to the Staff
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