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Legend Numismatics Reports Coin Shows Are Dying Off Due To The Internet

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numismatic student's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  2:43 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Last night Legend posted a market report which indicated that coins shows were dying because there isn't enough commercial activity occurring there. Mostly it is due to the internet and secondarily because of security headaches.

They pointed out Central States and the ANA as shows where there is a diminishing investment/return dynamic.

The report was mainly from a dealer perspective, but they indicated that the collectors aren't coming either.

Report here:
http://www.legendnumismatics.com/ma...mber-report/
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS
THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2017  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nothing but truth in that essay. One thing they missed, because it's not in their intended competency, is what I predict to be the rise of smaller regional shows in areas which can gather enough attendees within a 2-hour(ish) drive to be viable. These will not be concentrated on high-dollar offerings, but on "everyman" coins at $100 or less. There will always be a demographic interested in personal interaction with the product and the seller; it only remains to figure out how to concentrate and to serve them. I believe it a viable market.
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bpoc1's Avatar
United States
4078 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2017  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
, But, it sure was nice meeting a number of CCF members at the big ones, Chicago, Philadelphia.
Nice to see a face and a name of all the CCFamily.
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numismatic student's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  3:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are a lot of small coin shows within an hour's drive from where I live. Most of them have very limited inventory. One local show has a number of specialists in copper and small silver issues. These dealers have access to many stunning raw coins, but they are not cheap. Shows cost money and then there is the time value of their participation. I feel bad haggling with them sometimes because I have a good sense of their costs, but the internet is almost always cheaper. It is easier to haggle on the internet than face to face, at least for me.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS
THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2017  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent report, everything makes sense. I am the perfect example - I used to go to all of the large shows if held anywhere in the Midwest, but now I do almost all my buying (and selling) on-line. Today's superb photography makes it an irresistible way to do business.
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Certainly a spot on report. There are WAY to many "major" shows currently, feels like every other week is a "major" show and they seem to make no attempt to coordinate with each other so the timing and spacing of them makes sense.

The other thing too is the timing of the shows. I never understood why some shows think it is a smart idea to run during the week. Thursday/Friday sure that's fine to have more than a two day show but when shows start on like a Tuesday it makes no sense to me to think people are going to take a week off of work for it making the travel even more expensive.

There certainly can be a place for shows, but some of them need to adjust their thinking and catch up to the present.
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moxking's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A good answer to those who claim declining numbers of collectors.

I know the coins on my want list are impossible to find, and I'm not talking about that being because of high prices. They are simply not available.

I've expanded my want list to include four different goals with over 60 items I'm looking to buy, and it can still be months between buys.

There are plenty of "common" key dates available, but since I'm a date set collector, that rarely helps me.

I guess the good part is knowing that what I'm after isn't easily available. It's amazing the number of coins that have populations of a few hundred or less, classic, not modern, high grades that sell for a few hundred dollars or less.

If newbies begin collecting that material, it could be 1988 X 5.
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Coinfrog's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  7:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well said as always.
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Joe2007's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Joe2007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At the small show in my area there are only a few dealers that have both quality coins and reasonable pricing. The rest want retail+++ for coins that are either very common or aren't the best quality. The good dealers always have a line of customers at their table while the rest of the show is a ghost town.
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paralyse's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Customers and collectors obtain better pricing through the Internet.
Dealers and vendors obtain higher profit margins and lower expenses through the Internet.

The main drivers of purchasing decisions these days are convenience and price. The Internet beats going to a coin show in both respects, in almost all cases. Unless you live in a major city and can afford to take time off work, coin shows are often difficult to attend. When I go to a show, mostly I see dealers trading with dealers, and by the last day of the show, most of the big dealers have already left.

That being said, there are certain things -- a friendly rapport, early notice of recent acquisitions, a willingness to negotiate, etc -- which are still more easily found in person than online.

I would also add that certain specialty shows, such as the annual EAC convention, are thriving. The big shows (FUN, Baltimore, ANA National) still pull large crowds.

I used to go to Barnes & Noble once every couple of weeks and spend $50+ on books. Now I save fuel, time, and money, and download the same books onto my Kindle immediately upon release, and for half as much as the hardcovers. In addition, I can download a lot of specialized books without needing to have the local store special-order them. There is no conceivable reason for me to actually drive to the bookstore anymore -- in the off-chance that the item I need is not available on Kindle, I can special order it through Amazon and have it shipped to my door in 1-2 days.

With that in mind, the future of the local coin shop (and, indeed, coin shows themselves, especially regionals and locals) is very much in doubt. It simply no longer makes business sense for many folks to own and operate a shop or run tables at a show -- the expenses, and the time, do not justify the investment. Lacking sellers, collectors have no reason to attend shows, so they don't, and the cycle feeds upon itself.
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Alpha2814's Avatar
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 Posted 09/16/2017  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I came "this" close to going to the Santa Clara CoinExpo today. It's now at least the third local show that I skipped attending at the last minute, because when my alarm goes off at 7am on a Saturday I just can't drag myself out of bed to go. Going to this one would have taken 6 hours out of my day, which is more than I was willing to spend today. Instead, I did important stuff around the house (replacing 3 smoke alarms in the house and replacing the batteries in 4 more, and taking my car in for a smog check required for registration renewal).

I was excited to go because of its size and because there hadn't been a local one that I wanted to attend in several months. After having been disappointed with several of my more recent internet purchases, I also wanted to experience shopping in person again. My type collection has gone back far enough that eye appeal is harder to come by, especially at prices I'm willing to pay. On the other hand, I did just make a biggish purchase online just a couple of days ago (it hasn't arrived yet) and it was harder to justify going so far out of my way to spend even more.

For the most part, internet shopping has been adequate for my collection thus far, but that won't last too much longer unless I expand into other series (which I'm not eager to do). There's allegedly a show in Marin County next month which will be easier to get to.
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NH collector's Avatar
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 Posted 09/17/2017  8:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NH collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Next coin show, look around. What is the average of coin dealers there ? What is the average age of the collectors ? The current generations are not into collecting anything. Without the sales and profits from shows, due to declining attendance, many dealers no longer do shows. In the last 5 years, quite a few dealers have retired. Less dealers, less shows, less collectors. Yes, our hobby is in decline.
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 Posted 09/17/2017  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Next coin show, look around. What is the average of coin dealers there ? What is the average age of the collectors ? The current generations are not into collecting anything. Without the sales and profits from shows, due to declining attendance, many dealers no longer do shows. In the last 5 years, quite a few dealers have retired. Less dealers, less shows, less collectors. Yes, our hobby is in decline.


No. You're using an antiquated measurement method that has left many people in the past. If one cannot see the impact of the internet on the hobby which tells a completely different story they too will be left behind
Edited by basebal21
09/17/2017 9:14 pm
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MikeF's Avatar
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 Posted 09/17/2017  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Next coin show, look around. What is the average of coin dealers there ? What is the average age of the collectors ? The current generations are not into collecting anything. Without the sales and profits from shows, due to declining attendance, many dealers no longer do shows. In the last 5 years, quite a few dealers have retired. Less dealers, less shows, less collectors. Yes, our hobby is in decline.


Couldn't disagree with this statement more. You are watching a new tech-savvy generation of collectors moving their purchases online. Go to coin shows if your looking to buy overpriced common coins and other junk. I've already expressed my displeasure after attending 2 shows in the Kansas City area. No more for me.

I have a great display of coins at competitive prices every week using Heritage, Great Collections, David Lawrence, Stacks Bowers and Legend. Why would I waste my time going to shows that feature overprice album crap?
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chesterb's Avatar
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 Posted 09/17/2017  11:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chesterb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a comment on the last couple posts. Several dealer websites that I check out regularly are commenting on slow online sales too. Maybe the coin market as a whole is down? If so, these downturns are cyclical in nature and eventually come back.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 09/17/2017  11:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
No. You're using an antiquated measurement method that has left many people in the past. If one cannot see the impact of the internet on the hobby which tells a completely different story they too will be left behind


Yup. A third of our membership is under 30, and that's been consistent for the twelve years I've been watching. Numismatics is getting plenty of new blood. They're just not doing it the old-fashioned way.
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