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1948 Dollar - Repunched 4 And Hp

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Strach-Man's Avatar
Canada
491 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2017  9:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Strach-Man to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My thoughts on this goes. If I can not see any doubling on a coin using my 10x or 5x loupe then I will not collect it. Most collectors use a 10x and 5x loupe when looking at coins.
Crazyb0 I agree with what you said but limit my variety's
to the above statement when looking for them.
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SilverDon's Avatar
Canada
2360 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2017  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great discovery, good legwork on the notching, neat indicator with the die polish line.

Well done kbbpll.
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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2017  3:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll attempt to make a strong argument.

The die marker, notched 4, and apparent doubling under the right crossbar are visible at 10x once you know to look for them. The fact that I first saw these with a microscope at 40x to me is irrelevant. Lumping it in with somebody who thinks they won the lottery because they found some obscure dot with a microscope isn't fair. A pretty large number of "varieties" exist because somebody snooped around with a magnifying glass. Looking around at 40x is no different; it's just a different tool. While the level of magnification might be a threshold for somebody, or the degree of this or that, it's purely arbitrary. Whether it's too small or too minor is subjective. You can tack on "minor" or "micro", but the key issue to me is repeatability.

We document every minuscule nub, die chip and die state for the 1859 large cent. It's relevant because each of these features occur multiple times across many coins. Were they all discovered with the naked eye, at 5x, at 10x? Or are they "obvious" now because someone first saw them with a 40x loupe? I could go on with other examples but you get my point.

The important thing here is also repeatability. There are dozens of examples of this notched 4 on Heritage. There are, as far as I can tell, three different reverse dies used on the 1948. I can pick out whether the notched 4 exists on a coin or not just by looking at the inside of the 9. I have looked at roughly 100 examples, ignoring specimen strikes, and 45 are notched 4, 33 are not, and 21 are not positively identifiable due to image quality. Of those 21, 12 have the vertical die marker, but the image is not good enough to decide. All of the notched 4 have the vertical die marker inside the 9. None of the other two dies have it. Readily identifiable examples range from AU53 to MS65.

As far as "value", I don't see there being any change. Roughly half the coins I've looked at have it. If anything, the dies that don't have it are more rare.

Whether those other two (or more, who knows) dies have a similar or some other thing going on, I can't say since I only have one example in hand. Look and see?

Ultimately it doesn't really matter to me whether this gets documented somewhere, or accepted as a variety or not. Looking at the level of magnification of the pictures for, let's say, the 1951 5/5s in the 2012 Charlton, I'd think a similar sized image would clearly show this repunching for the 1948. But it's up to the experts to decide. Regardless, from now on I'll never _not_ see it or check for it.

These dies do not have the notched 4:
Die #2 has obvious line from 10:00-4:00
1948-Dollar---Repunched-4-And-Hp
Die #3 has no obvious lines, minor striations NW to SE
1948-Dollar---Repunched-4-And-Hp
Specimen die for reference
1948-Dollar---Repunched-4-And-Hp
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thedollarman's Avatar
Canada
4911 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2017  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Check thedollarman's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add thedollarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i think it is actually quite interesting and valuable work you're doing..do not take my previous post the wrong way, although I agree with others that it is minor and not valuable, I still think it's an important discovery..I really like what you've done because not only are you showing a clear marker of a genuine example from a certain reverse die but you're also documenting the dies used which is interesting and in my opinion relevant. good work and I love the passion you have
Feel free to call me Will.
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Crazyb0's Avatar
10197 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2017  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

1948-Dollar---Repunched-4-And-Hp



1948-Dollar---Repunched-4-And-Hp
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Canada
5591 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2017  4:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
kbbpll ... That is some great detective work that you have been doing on the 48's. It's research like that that makes these coin sites so valuable and that I've added to numerous times. My hat's off to you for your effort. But I still have a problem with ebay sellers touting "previously unknown" varieties that have been talked about for more years than the sellers have been alive ... due to a small chip of D/C in the die and 40X optics. Congrats and let Roger write it up with you for publication.
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usdollar75's Avatar
35 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2017  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add usdollar75 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 09/22/2017  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I applaud the poster for this. May not be a valuable variety, but is very valuable to the collecting community for Counterfeit Detection, really priceless. Thank you
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1947ML's Avatar
Canada
39 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2017  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1947ML to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is AWESOME,, A quick look at the 1948's I have , and using a 10x loop, looking at the die marker inside the 9 and I have the following:

2 coins have the die marker from 1 to 4
1 coin has the die marker from 11 to 4
1 coin is complete free , no line inside the 9

So am I correct in saying the die marker from 1 to 4 is the notched four? This is what I can see in the four as well.. Don't need super magnification to see it; if I'm correct.



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kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 09/25/2017  01:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for all the thought-provoking replies. I become obsessed and have way too much time on my hands. Fortunately it has not affected my eyesight.

1947ML, I'd have to guess that the first two will have the notched 4 and the other two will not. It's great that this inspired someone to take another look at a 48, and I'm jealous that you apparently have examples of three different dies in hand. I would love it if you or anyone else found something unique about the others.

After letting this sit for a couple days, I'd have to downgrade my previous 10x evaluation on the notched 4 from "visible" to "perceivable". Really the tip looks rough like it's PMD at 10x.

I think the George VI dollars are ripe for more variety discoveries, and more public (i.e. internet) documentation of them. There are literally thousands of documented Morgan varieties, and CCF says about them "in most cases, attributing a VAM is a process requiring a loupe with minimum 15x magnification". Search for "canada dollar varieties" and see what you get. All I seem to have to go on is the 2012 Charlton and coinsandcanada, and it's almost entirely double+ HPs, water lines, and JOPs. If there's another reference, let me know. Otherwise I'm about to go just as crazy with the 1947 ML dollar... (groans from the audience)
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