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Replies: 14 / Views: 2,838 |
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Pillar of the Community
979 Posts |
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Look at the faces of Franklin and the allegorical figures - they don't look alive. Look at the shading in "United States of America" as compared to a genuine example. Look at the note borders detail - definitely a counterfeit and not close to the standards of the Russian counterfeits of this denomination. Still this note does not seem to be legal to own - and would be appropriate for confiscation by the Secret Service.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12477 Posts |
Quote: Still this note does not seem to be legal to own As far as I know, it is not illegal to own counterfeits. It is, however, illegal to use them in transactions as if they were genuine currency.
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020 In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020 In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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New Member
15 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
That is correct.
How do you think this was made?
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Here is the law. The Secret Service will confiscate counterfeits if they come to their attention. You almost certainly will not be charged for having it - unless they don't like something else you have been doing - but you certainly won't be allowed to keep the note.
§ 472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securi- ties Whoever, with intent to defraud, passes, ut- ters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or with like intent brings into the United States or keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 705; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(K), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147; Pub. L. 107-56, title III, § 374(c), Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 340.) HISTORICAL AND REVISION N
Edited by beryl 10/09/2017 5:48 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Well thanks for that, I stand corrected. Counterfeit coins have appeared on ebay frequently in the past without issue. I bought one on our local bid board just a year or two ago for the fun of it and then sold it.
Edited by Coinfrog 10/09/2017 5:51 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12840 Posts |
I think the "with intent to defraud" and the "or with like intent" clauses allow the wiggle room to legally own counterfeits.
Edited by CelticKnot 10/09/2017 7:37 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Surely this is the case.
Edited by Coinfrog 10/09/2017 7:39 pm
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Agree that without intent to defraud you will not be found guilty of the crime of uttering and be subject to imprisonment merely for possessing counterfeit notes (and as I said before unless your case comes to their attention and they don't like something else you have been doing they won't arrest you so you don't have to battle with them over the issue of intent.) However irrespective of intent counterfeit notes are contraband and are subject to seizure by the feds at any time. The most famous case on this subject involves the Boggs drawn art notes where there was dispute about whether the Boggs creations were "counterfeits" or art. Some of these notes were actually seized by the government and Boggs sued to get them back. The decision of the courts provides interesting reading. From the decision : "We need not determine whether the Cheyenne seizure was legal under the Fourth Amendment because Boggs does not challenge the premise that if the seized bills violate the likeness or similitude standards in 18 U.S.C. § 474, they are contraband per se and cannot be returned. Contraband per se comprises objects which are inherently unlawful to possess, regardless of how they are used. As we explain below, the Boggs Bills in this case fall within that category. The district court properly noted that "[i]ndividuals have no property right in contraband materials and contraband materials may not be returned to them." Merletti, 987 F.Supp. at 10. This Circuit addressed the issue in United States v. Farrell, 606 F.2d 1341, 1344 (D.C.Cir.1979):
There was argument about whether the Boggs bills were indeed counterfeits but both sides ageeed that actual counterfeit notes were unlawful contraband and could be seized.
Edited by beryl 10/10/2017 12:14 am
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12477 Posts |
Thanks for the thorough clarifications, beryl!  Quote: I think the "with intent to defraud" and the "or with like intent" clauses allow the wiggle room to legally own counterfeits. Is this also why the ebay listing is allowed for not having "intent to defraud"? They are selling but, not as a legitimate note.
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020 In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020 In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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Pillar of the Community
United States
959 Posts |
I've been looking for one of these, genuine of course, and have been watching it since it was posted. Just curious of who would pay $1200 for a counterfeit. Since there are 9 watching it, I'm not the only one.
I believe it started out in the neighborhood of $1400.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Anyone have any thoughts on when, and how, this counterfeit was made?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
655 Posts |
You can't judge by that 'photo', if you want to call it that. It looks like cardboard. I'm sure it was altered or just plain horrible photography, or a stock pic for that type bill. Besides which, the seller doesn't actually say that's the item for sale. He does, however, say his offering is genuine. If it turned out to be a fake, he surely could be liable. In his defense, though, he does have a near 100% rating after more than 13,000 transactions.
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Valued Member
Belgium
186 Posts |
@beryl IMHO reading that legislation I think that having a counterfeit note in the USA without intent to actually use it isn't illegal and the note can't be confiscated. Look:
§ 472. Uttering counterfeit obligations or securi- ties Whoever, with intent to defraud [...] keeps in possession or conceals any falsely made, forged, counterfeited, or altered obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
Seems to me that if you're not having it while preparing to pass it, the note can't be confiscated. (Plus so many people own contemporary counterfeit notes in the USA and show them off, I just don't see any getting confiscated [for private collectors at least])
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Replies: 14 / Views: 2,838 |
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