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Spade Coin But From Who?

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vince1977's Avatar
Netherlands
847 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2017  09:36 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello All,

I have this Chinese old Spade money item. But I am not an expert in this field. I was wondering if anyone happens to know this piece.
On the reverse are no symbols

Spade-Coin-But-From-Who?
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Justinokay's Avatar
United States
564 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2017  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Justinokay to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Huo Bu Spade
Value 25
Think it's from Xin dynasty or Zhou dynasty
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Petrus's Avatar
Belgium
2895 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2017  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is a cast replica/copy/forgery.
You will find a picture of the real one if you download the (old) catalog.
https://www. Dangerous site - not allowed! /s/c6cidiqnu6hpsu4/Catalogue_Chinese_Coins_7thcBC-621AD.pdf?dl=0
Look at page 306
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vince1977's Avatar
Netherlands
847 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2017  1:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
how so a cast copy that is insane? I did clean it myself with electrolyse due the high corrosion on it
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34418 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2017  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I did clean it myself with electrolyse due the high corrosion on it


I think that was a bad idea @vince. Hopefully @typecoin or one of our other experts on these will weigh in. in the meanhwile, here are a couple potentially useful threads:

http://goccf.com/t/266555
http://goccf.com/t/234636
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Edited by Spence
12/24/2017 3:26 pm
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Justinokay's Avatar
United States
564 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2017  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Justinokay to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It is a cast replica/copy/forgery.
You will find a picture of the real one if you download the (old) catalog.
https://www. Dangerous site - not allowed! /s/c6cidiqnu6hpsu4/Catalogue_Chinese_Coins_7thcBC-621AD.pdf?dl=0
Look at page 306


@ Petrus

China did not have any coins struck till the mid 1900s. So everything was casted with moulds. As for this example I have no idea about its authenticity.
Valued Member
AnYangMan's Avatar
Netherlands
91 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2017  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed, all Chinese coins (save a couple of really rare ones; the Chu-gold blocks come to mind) up until the 20th century were cast coins. While I myself specialise in pre-Han coinage, I do come across these quite often (they are by far the most common spade-type). I myself also own one, which was the first Chinese coin I ever got (sorry for the slightly out-of-focus image. The book is an original 19th century Japanese coin catalogue):

Spade-Coin-But-From-Who?

Justinokay's ID was quite close; A so-called 'huobo' (litt: 'Spade money') spade, which was valued at 25 huo quans (=125 Zhu), instigated in the last coinage reform of the usurper Wang Mang. Around 7 AD, this regent seized the imperial Han-throne and had himself crowned emperor of the newly created Xin-dynasty (Xin literally translates to 'New'). Wang Mang is an enigmatic figure in Chinese history, and ditto for his policies. He instated a state-owned monopoly on several markets and limited the amount of land a single person could own; the rest would return to the state. He is therefore often regarded as a sort of 'proto-communist'. He also reformed the coinage system multiple times, most of which were so extremely unpopular, that anyone caught possessing older Wu Zhu coins not deemed legal, would be executed. The reform in AD 14 would be the final reform and it, amongst other things, introduced the Huobo spade we see here. The Wang Mang-interregnum lasted until 23 AD, when peasant rebellions would overthrow the hugely unpopular Wang Mang and cut his body into pieces.

As for the authenticity: I am not 100% sure. You can never be with these pieces. But I definitely am not seeing any immediate red flags. The book Petrus references to is the first ever Chinese coin catalogue published in the Western Language (I had the privilege of handling an original copy a while back). And I hate to say it, but it is rather outdated and it is almost never used. 90% of the fakes from this type are extremely easy to detect, with the other 10% being extremely difficult. They are characterised by thin and accurate strokes and rims. This ticks both those boxes. The colour is correct for a cleaned piece. I am willing to say it is very, very probable to be genuine. A lot of people immediately assume all spades are fake, but they definitely aren't!

Vince, just two questions: could you please provide us with the measurements, weight and size, if possible? And: where did you purchase this coin? Based on the damage on the left foot, I think I know where you got it from; a lot at the NPV? If that is the case, I have a picture of it before it got cleaned. I actually bid on that lot! That coin is most likely authentic, and I get what you mean with 'high corrosion'. The patina/corrosion is a huge factor in authenticating these spades, so I wouldn't have cleaned it and I would always advise against. But it certainly isn't ruined!

Also: if possible, could you provide us with a picture of the rim? It is rather specific for this type of coin, so who knows we might be able to deduce something from that.

Thomas (TypeCoin971793) specialises in numismatic artefacts from the Xin-interregnum, and will undoubtedly be able to provide a lot more information on it's authenticity. I've send him a message, hope he will tune in and give his opinion.

Kind regards,

Mika
Edited by AnYangMan
12/26/2017 09:47 am
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vince1977's Avatar
Netherlands
847 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2017  09:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Mika,
You are certainly right.. it is from the auction here. And the place is close by for me.
To be honest the first time I ever bought something from an auction and someone happens to recognize it.

I know it is perhaps a stupid idea to try to get it better but otherwise I wouldnt be able to know more about it. As you happen to know because you have seen in advance.. I will make pictures of the rim and give you the size and weight in a couple of hours
Best regards,
Vincent
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2017  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some things I notice:

1. Characters are very sharp. That is good.
2. Corners are well-defined. That is also good.
3. Color looks right for a cleaned coin. Also potentially good. But don't try to remove the patina on Chinese coins in the future.
4. On the legs, there appear to be voids of lost metal. (Circled) Not good because these coins were well-made, and such blatant imperfections would likely not have made it out of the mint.
5. A random lump next to the top left of the "Huo" character. (Circled as well). Unusual, but not necessarily bad.

Spade-Coin-But-From-Who?

Could you post a picture of the reverse?

How easily did the black patina come off? I had a fake with very similar dark muddy patina, and it came off with a nylon brushing. But the characters on that fake were much less defined than on your coin.

Spade-Coin-But-From-Who?
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vince1977's Avatar
Netherlands
847 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2017  10:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The bottom circles are due to the corrion. It went into the coin so after cleaning you see things like this... It is always with coins who has a big green thick corrosion. I have found 1000nds here in the netherlands with my metal detector and all coins with a big encrustion get holes if you try to make them better. If you have zinc coins like the second world war types with the corrosion it is even 10 times worse.. these things are typicial aswell as the spot you put a red circle above. you have this on many coins if there is some dirt on places..

How easily it came off... it took more then a day. with an easy brush like you used would still be the same

Anyway the length is like 58-59 mm .
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2017  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, in that case I am inclined to believe that it is genuine.
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