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2009 The New 1943?

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Chaotech's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2008  9:13 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Chaotech to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Everyone talks about the new design of the 2009 Lincoln Cent... but what about the new composition!?


Quote:

There have a been a couple of numesmatic debates that have seemed endless over the past few decades. One, of couse, has been around the eventual death of the paper dollar. The second, almost as persistent, has been about the death of the US one cent piece, aka, "the penny".

A friend of mine at work pointed me to this site, Retire the Penny.

For the most part, the call to retire the penny has been made on the back of two basic arguments:

Nuisance. People don't value them anyway, and tend to just stuff them in dishes, jars, piggy banks, or literally on the ground.
Cost. With the rising cost of metals like copper and zinc, the cost of the penny has actually exceeded one cent, meaning that we lose money every year. In fact, people are melting them down, illegally, spurring law enforcement action.
On Friday, May 9th, the US House of Representatives passed H.R. 5512, which gives the US Mint 270 days to change the base metal of the US one cent and five cent pieces to more affordable metals. The current bill actually calls for "copper-colored steel", although there are arguments for even more cost effective metals. From CoinNews.net:

The House debated on the legislation and finally voted yesterday to change the metallic composition of the penny and 5-cent nickel to a less expensive copper-colored steel.

Although the prices of copper, zinc and nickel metals in coins have declined in recent months, the penny and 5-cent nickel still cost more to make than what they're worth—resulting in a reported loss of about $100 million every year, or $1 billion over a decade.

It now costs about 1.26 cents to make the penny and about 7.7 cents to make the nickel.

House bill "H.R. 5512, the Coin Modernization and Taxpayer Savings Act of 2008" would seek to change those manufacturing costs by using copper-colored steal, which could cut the cost of making pennies down to about 0.7 cents each. But its recent passage in the House is no guarantee it'll make its way to the White House for signing.

H.R. 5512 must still go through the Senate and then the President, and not everyone is happy with the current legislation.

Personally, I've always loved the steel pennies from 1943, the one year that they were switched due to wartime rationing of copper. I even bought a few hundred on ebay just for fun.

Little known fact - Canada switched to a copper-colored steel penny a few years ago. Who knew?

This type of change will remove the second argument against keeping the penny. Personally, I think the penny is largely retiring itself. As more and more retail institutions display "give a penny, take a penny" dishes, they are effectively making the cent unnecessary for transactions.

This is all very interesting given that 2009 is designed to be a celebratory year for the penny, marking 100 years of the Lincoln Cent, with collectible versions made out of pure copper.

Valued Member
Chaotech's Avatar
United States
99 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2008  9:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chaotech to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i dont like the idea of a copper colored steel personally... doesn't this add a whole new level to coin grading?

I would rather have just plain steel, IMO we are wasting money to color it... reminds me of annodized aluminum... CHEAP!
Edited by Chaotech
05/20/2008 9:25 pm
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Spider5689's Avatar
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2269 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2008  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spider5689 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I not sure that it would change the way we grade the Lincoln Cent. We went from a copper cent to a copper plated zinc penny and it did not change the way it is graded.
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Chaotech's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2008  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chaotech to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i guess what keeps running through my head is that there may be some inconsistancies in metal mixture giving coins a natural difference in tone due to the batch of metal it was made from... I couldnt imagine they could melt and mix all of the metal needed for the billions of pennies they will mint in 2009 at once... so if its done in batches I expect to see some differences...
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Spider5689's Avatar
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 Posted 05/20/2008  9:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spider5689 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You're probably right about there being different batches with differences. I'm not sure the mint has done extensive testing on the steel/copper colored penny yet. I would assume that the mint would iron out any problems before there is a full scale production.
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arthrene's Avatar
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1713 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2008  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add arthrene to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If they're going to change the composition, I would really like to see the color change along with it. I think it would be cool to have steel-colored steel cents (lol).
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KurtS's Avatar
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5318 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  02:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would agree--our cent isn't necessary for trade and it's wasteful. An interesting bit of trivia: when the Lincoln Cent was first introduced in 1909, it cost 0.11 cents each to make!

Btw, the Canadian cent you describe isn't "copper colored". From my books, it's described as a steel planchet that's plated in nickel, then plated in copper. I consider this composition more durable than either Cu/Zn or the Zn/steel cents of '43.
Edited by KurtS
05/21/2008 1:36 pm
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jeffreyice1's Avatar
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381 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  02:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeffreyice1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it cost them 1.2 Cents to make, why not go back to the size of the 3 Cent Peace with the Penny? It would cost a third of the price!

And more accurately represent the penny!
Edited by jeffreyice1
05/21/2008 02:20 am
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americanmoney's Avatar
United States
36 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add americanmoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think if you made them real small nobody would use them, they highly under value them now.
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Fatcat161's Avatar
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277 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  10:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fatcat161 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Look at the euro cents. They are tiny.

As for the value of a cent, try not giving the pennies of change to a customer. I'd bet you'd get more argument about not giving the correct change than cheating someone out of 4 cents, but they would notice.

Fatcat
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jbuck's Avatar
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187862 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  10:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
reminds me of annodized aluminum.
Please do not give our government any ideas! We might end up with colourized coins!


Quote:
We went from a copper cent to a copper plated zinc penny and it did not change the way it is graded.
An interesting topic that can be debated on its own. Over the last several years, modern coin dies have increased in detail and decreased in relief; both can affect wear and arguably grading. Compare a recent uncirculated Lincoln Cent to one from the copper era. Or any recent denomination to one from twenty years ago. Frightening!


Quote:
I would agree--our cent isn't necessary for trade and it's wasteful.

IMHO, the Lincoln Cent should be NIFC starting in 2010.
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Chaotech's Avatar
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99 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chaotech to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
if we do away with the cent then gas prices instead of rising 6 cents it would be 10! or .... instead of 11 cents its 15!! AHHH
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 05/21/2008  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We would still have the cent "on paper" or more accurately, in the computers. ACH, Checking, Credit/Debit Card, Money Orders, and all other Electronic transactions would still be calculated to the cent.

Even if the Mint stopped making the cent today, I feel it would be several years before they would be completely gone from circulation. People would start using up the change jars and banks would be clearing out their boxes, even if some people ended up hoarding more of them for perceived numismatic value.

The cent is given no respect now, people toss them away, so what would really change?
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1231 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add onejinx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
if we do away with the cent then gas prices instead of rising 6 cents it would be 10! or .... instead of 11 cents its 15! AHHH


This wouldn't be true. If the price of gas went from $3.509 to $3.569 it would still be per gallon. You wouldn't round each gallon to $3.609
You would ony round the total purchase. So if you got 15 gals @ $3.569 it comes to $53.54 and if that was rounded it would only change by a cent to $53.55
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ratio411's Avatar
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1208 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  5:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratio411 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
if that was rounded it would only change by a cent to $53.55

Love the way you say "ONLY".
That is why gas stations keep using the 'mill'.
That tiny little "ONLY" adds up to huge numbers.
Now if you make it mills and pennies, it will be used
in such a way to always be rounded up and line their
pockets. Just like the mill is always at "9".
You never see a gallon of gas with the mill rate at "4",
do you? They'll do the same with the cent if folks like
you give them the chance.
It may ONLY be money to you, but please don't speak for me.
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KurtS's Avatar
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5318 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2008  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"They'll do the same with the cent if folks like you give them the chance."

I don't see how removing a physical currency unit changes any businesses unit cost.
Let's bring back the Half Cent! Meanwhile, the petrol. industry could still set retail price by 1/100, 1/200, 1/1000--whatever they like!

Any minute fraction of unit cost is multiplied by total units, then rounded up or down as total units--not individually. This calculation is rather transparent; I don't see a conspiracy to defraud the consumer here.
Edited by KurtS
05/21/2008 6:24 pm
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