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 Replies: 37 / Views: 4,023 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Interesting? Can you identify(KM#) and grade? NOTE: coin is not a restrike or been modified! Image:  German_20Mark_1911J_Obv.jpg89.67 KB Image: German_20Mark_1911J_Rev.jpg88.19 KB Edited by Forum Mom to move to World Coin Forum as discussion is mainly on authenticity rather than grade and visibility in the World forum could help with identification. |
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Valued Member
United States
128 Posts |
My deep apologies the info sent previous was completely wrong it reflects a (2Mark) not a 20.
Edited by ptb
06/03/2008 9:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
812 Posts |
This looks like KM 295.
My edition of Krause (which is several years out of date) does not list this denomination for this year. It lists 1908J and 1913J, and a 10 Mark 1911J gold piece; but no 1911J 20 Mark.
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Valued Member
United States
405 Posts |
Nice Coin.....judging from the pic,Id give it an AU
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
That's an interesting omission by Krause...sometimes they simply leave out information. I did not find a 1911 on Heritage auctions, but here's a 1913 reverse for comparison:  |
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Moderator
 Australia
16844 Posts |
It's not just Krause. None of my reference books mention a 1911 Hamburg 20 marks, and of the 370 Hamburg 20 mark coins listed on CoinArchives, not one is a 1911. I don't know what it means, but apparently, your coin does not exist.  Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1415 Posts |
this is still bothering me.
My Krause volume also does not include a reference
I sent an e-mail to Krause about it and have not heard back - probably never will.
I have searched the net and again nothing.
I have seen restrikes before, but usually they are of previously struck coins. Also they are referenced in Krause as well.
And if SAP does not know - is this the unknowable?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
812 Posts |
Historically, most coins that turn up with a year/mint mark/denomination combination that "does not exist" turn out to be counterfeit. (Or more nicely, a "fantasy piece.")
I hope another explanation can be found for this scenario, but I am very suspicious.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Bilbo,
That is correct. But until confirmed, I will continue pursuing it. When they create these fantasy coins they are usually either bad fake (not gold) or struck by country of origin.
The first case is not true. Weight and size point to the gold content (using other 20 Mark as comparson.
And when struck by country, they are usually reported in Krause.
This specimen fails on both, so I am still optimistic.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3640 Posts |
Interesting? It looks to have the same rev. as the prussian
1911 20 Mark. KM521
Looks about the same size also. That one lists at 0.2304 gold wght.
Around $275.00 in Unc.
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
1911J 20Mark Gold coin doesn't exist... What you have is a falsification worth the metal value only... 1911 Hamburg isses were only in 2, 3 and 10 Mark (No 5 or 20 Mark that year).
Sorry... Hope you didnt pay too much for it? Whats the history of your 'coin'?
Edited by Zaggy
06/12/2008 12:49 pm
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
If youre into german coins, forget about Krause... There are some inaccuracies in there; such as mintages, prices and of course, what does exist!
Go find a copy of Jaeger (Kurt Jeager - Die deutschen Münzen seit 1871)... There are, at 2007, 20 different editions out there, BUT if youre into pre-Euro, anything from the 18th and Back, covers what you need (the 1979 11th Edition is arguably the best); I've a number of different editions here.
But yeah, the Jaeger covers all known German issues; as well as some of the editions cover some of the Proben too...
To complete the set though, you also need Schaaf's proben katalog (Rudolf Schaaf - Der Proben die deutschen Münzen seit 1871), that covers all known Proben upto about 1979; after 1979, well, start doing research :).
That said, if youre into BRD stuff as well, you need Erich Paproth's EPA Katalog, and Egon Beckenbauer's Standard deutschen Münzkatalog is also invaluable.
I just cant stress enough that Krause is not a good way to go after specifics like German coins!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Zaggy,
THANX for the info.
I guess no trip to Aruba to watch the turtle races!
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
No worries wwhitmann... Did a little more checking this evening; emailed some German friends and doubled checked the Schaaf Proben Katalog as well as some database searches. But nothing... However, like me, one of the German guys is sure he has seen this 'coin' before somewhere, but as I said, after searching some Auktionskatalog DB's and other places, NOTHING has come up. So, I'd go so far as to say I am 99.9999% sure its a falsification...
BUT, that doesn't mean it doesn't interest me!
These coins is supposed to be in a composition of Au900/Cu100, with a diameter of 22.5mm and total weight of 7.965g (and thus 7.168g is actually Gold). The Edge should be smooth with the text 'GOTT MIT UNS' (God with us) engraved (yes, Germany, throughout the Kaiserreich, Weimar and Nazi era was the MOST Christianised of all the European countries!).
Im curious as to if this coin actually is Gold (and thus still worth value as Bullion) or if its weight is off (and thus probably just some form of Gold plated Lead alloy). Also, did you buy the coin as 'genuine' and how much you pay for it? Do you know the history of the coin? I hope you share :)
Still, either way (Gold or not) its still an interesting piece; I know I wouldnt knock the piece back! :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Zaggy,
I took the coin out of its holder and yes it does have th GOTT MIT UNS engraved on its edge.
I was working on getting photos to you as it still interests me. Now even more in that so much detail was done to make a fake coin.
I checked its weight and it does weigh in at 8 grams.
I just purchased a new computer and made the mistake of putting Vista on. After 7 hours I got e-mail, Web interfaces going. Photos not up yet. Give me another week! HA HA
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Cool... I kinda wish you had a REAL Hamburg 20 Mark, that you could put it next to for direct comparison (ie, thickness, edge, etc... Also, its quite possible that the Flan is authentic and the only the actual stamping is fake.
I'm keen to know more... :) Just emailed another buddy about it... :)
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Replies: 37 / Views: 4,023 |
German_20Mark_1911J_Obv.jpg
German_20Mark_1911J_Rev.jpg
Posted 06/03/2008 10:11 pm
