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 Replies: 37 / Views: 4,024 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1415 Posts |
Actually I do. I have a 1910A and J (Prussian). The physical dimensions are the same. They all look the same except for the obverse.
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Cool... Sounds like a REALLY good 1911J! Still waiting to hear back from ppl in regards to whether its a known falsification or not... :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Real cool - should I get ready for the turtle races?
I thought it was interesting that the rim was impressed. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through for a 'falsification'.
I see you are 'researching coins of the German Third Reich'. What exactly is that all about? Anything special ya looking for? I have a few German specimens minted in late 1930's and early 1940's.
THANX again for your interest
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
I'm going to wonder out loud here...if somewhere were to fake a coin, wouldn't they use a known date?  If everything else looks accurate to your other coins, why not the date? I find this very interesting. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Kurt,
Sometimes that is true.
I have seen fake dates as well (somewhere on this site I saw a 1865 Washington Dollar that looked exactly like a quarter. Actually I think it was a quarter just messed with. Also to make money I have seen just what I have here - usually countries will do this exercise to make money. But those I see in Krause as re-strike. Check the 1929 Hungarian 5 pengo. There was one struck in 1929 and a re-strike made later. The only difference is the mint.
But I am curious about this 20 Mark - Just doesn't fit a pattern.
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
The thing with fakes of different Year/Mintmark is, Proben sell for BIG MONEY; especially uncatalogued proben! The inexperienced proben collector can quite easily get stung this way (not saying youre an inexperienced proben collector wwhitmann)... BUT, Ive heard back from some ppl on this coin! It is known - there are a number of them out there; AND opinions are divided. The General consensus is, its a fake/counterfeit/fantasy coin, as there of course was NO official 1911J 20M (See note in a variety of Jaeger editions, after J.212) and seems to be no records of any Private mintings. However, in "Werner Dopp - Berlin und sein Geld" (1972 - ISBN 3792501961) it is noted that "everybody could mint their own gold nuggets to coins in that time". Of course this relates to the Preussian State Mint and may not apply to Frei-Stadt Hamburger Münze. The book by Weege (I don't have the ISBN and Full title on me - Its all about German Counterfeuts though - I dont own a copy of this myself; nor the Dopp Book :( ) apparently states that some of the 1911's may be 'Private Orders'; this would seem to indicate AGAIN that while the coins are not 'official', it is PLAUSIBLE that the coin was produced essentially as Bullion for Private citizens (interestingly this then would not have been Legal Tender maybe? One would need to check the Monetary Act of 1871; Which should be in the Reichsgesetzblatt). So yeah, expert opinions seem to be divided! The consensus as I said before seems to be that these are most probably modern falsifications, BUT that should be tempered with the fact that it seems as if it MAY have been possible for these coins to have been privately minted at Hamburg in 1911 (a lot of Hamburg Records were destroyed in 1943 when the mint was HEAVILY struck)... The quest for information CONTINUES!! If you get a chance to get the Books by Weege (on falsifications) and Dopp, it would probably be worth your while, if youre into this sort of coin... Finding a Jaeger edition goes without saying and shouldnt be that hard to find. :) Just a couple of Euro's on German ebay... Hope the info is helpful/interesting :) |
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
If I have time, I'll check the Reichsgesetzblatt later on... I cant right now though... I have a final in 10mins here at Uni... :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
That's very interesting info. I know little about these coins, and enjoyed the read--thanks!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
I too have learned much.
As the quest continues to see if I do get my trip to Aruba for the turtle races.
I think the information/knowledge I have acquired has been more than worth to cost.
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
Sorry, Now that I have done exam (and felt like I did quite well :) ), I can answer some of the other stuff here: we'll start with... Quote:
I see you are 'researching coins of the German Third Reich'. What exactly is that all about? Anything special ya looking for? I have a few German specimens minted in late 1930's and early 1940's.
Indeed I am. Upto my eyeballs in research material, books, scans, photo's, archive documents, etc, relating to German coinage from 1933 until about 1953. Looking as in depth as possible into the Reichsmark Currency under the Third Reich and what transpired after the war until it was replaced by the East and West Currency Reforms... As for what I'm looking for, generally I try and contain this within 'EVERYTHING'... :) There is a lot of information in the 260 odd pages I have (it was 372 pages until a BIT cull the other month - especially within the appendicies), but the era was somewhat turbulent, so there are still holes that I'm trying to fill. Not to mention, I'm looking at Proben too, so seeking as many images of those too... Now, when you say Specimen's, do you mean Proof's, Proben or 'Very Nice Examples'? I'm still specifically after as many pictures/scans of the Occupation Issues (45-48), Proben (33-48), Reichskreditkassen Issues (40-41) and errors/varieties... AND Finally, on the subject of the Monetary Laws of 1871, the Reichsgesetzblatt archive I have access to only goes back as far as 1919. I shall see if I can get earlier extracts some other way... KurtS: yeah, Pre-Third Reich is not really my area either; however I do find myself being drawn more and more to the Kaiserreich and Weimarer era's. Its definately interesting... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Zaggy,
Krause did respond to the e-mail request. They also do not have any listing of Hamburg minting any 20 Mark pieces.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1415 Posts |
Well, looks like this thread has run its course.
Does anybody have a suggestion as how to proceed?
Should I submit the coin to a third party? Someone like Krause or a grading company like PCGS. Or is that a waste of dollars?
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Moderator
 Australia
16844 Posts |
PCGS I think would be a waste of money, since they seem to work off the Krause references. But you never know; they might have experts on staff who'd know who to ask about apparently unique, undocumented pieces. You could try asking them.  Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
Australia
432 Posts |
I'd look at places like https://www.franquinet.de ... While not a Grading Service or anything like that, Guy Franquinet is (as I understand) one of the better known and respected experts on Varianten, Proben and Errors... Shooting Guy an email could be worth your while; alternatively, you could also try Künker too (www.kuenker.de from memory). Basically Id start with any of the better known German Auction Houses and Proben experts... Its a German coin, go to the source! As for Krause; yet again I have emailed them nicely and yet again, they fail to respond! Sure I'm not a big customer; I only own 3 of the Catalogue's, but they just don't like me! wwhitmann, what email did you use to get them? Maybe I'm just trying the WRONG person! |
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1238 Posts |
Quote:
The book by Weege (I don't have the ISBN and Full title on me The one issued in late 2005 has the title "Münzfälschungen"; the ISBN is 9783950162066. That first volume has about 300 pages (roughly A4 size) and costs almost €50. The new volume will have more than 500 pages but cost about €100 ... As far as I know, the first volume can also be purchased http://www.moneytrend.at/ as a PDF file which should be less expensive. On page 132 there is a footnote about private orders with years other than the "official" ones. Christian |
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Replies: 37 / Views: 4,024 |
First Page
Posted 06/15/2008 10:42 am
