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Yeah, Must Be Sea Salvage

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Pillar of the Community

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1962 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2018  10:52 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
because yeah, that's definitely what all those discrete pores result from. From someone who should know better...

Is everyone just clueless?
Yeah,-Must-Be-Sea-Salvage
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2018  11:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes Clem should know better. I did purchase some interesting things (2 or 3) from him Realeswatcher like some debased or copper cobs. But like I said I even made errors selling these as possible period pieces. Cobs and pillars are almost impossible to call contemporary based on their fabric and they never come in a real simple off-metal like german silver, brass or bronze.

I know we have not agreed on all items but look at the Heritage sale in April and all those cleaned Cap and Rays in certified holders. I analyzed around (6) of these types or more specifically these types of pieces with this same appearance. This sort of silvery wash effect IMO over a copper host (IMO). This produces this WEIRD color and hence the NGC grader sees these specimens in an off color and we see CLEANED as a tag on over a dozen slabs in this auction in April. These IMO are silver electrodeposited over copper types as described in Forgotten as Gurney has sent me two from his collection for my book Forgotten. I sold the one I had on ebay which was XRF verified as silver electrode posited over copper and IMO these are all of this type. Just consider Realeswatcher a very thin silver deposit application over copper and then ~150 years of wear and then you get this look. I know ... Chihuahua ... even so ... just a thought ... as its TOO COMPLEX and little understood right now anyway for anything to change on this new type of counterfeit solely and its reserved it seems for Cap and Rays ... as from memory in Forgotten we call this a post 1840 type counterfeiting process as it was only developed in 1840 (silver electrodeposition).

Either way Realeswatcher all these CLEANED Cap and Rays have THE SAME LOOK!

JPL
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2018  4:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've only peeked at the Cap & Ray auction, John... I saw your post about it. I have some thoughts; will post at some point in that thread.

A piece like this is a straight-up modern cast - detail is exact, so clearly done from an actual piece. It's TOO exact to be anything other than last 50 years - so in this case, it's pretty easy to at least rule OUT being contemporary.


Quote:
Cobs and pillars are almost impossible to call contemporary based on their fabric

I'm telling you, with experience, it gets easier. For the most part, I'll bet you're fairly confident in looking at a simple non-Kleeberg 2R cast and pretty much knowing whether it's a period piece vs. something recent. That comes from knowing what things should present as - genuine vs. contemporary vs. modern. There may be more variety among the genuine corpus to absorb w/cobs... but the same rules generally apply.

Also, the age difference can help, as it does here (in ruling out as period anything THIS "neat", quality-wise).

PS - That last point REALLY helps with Pillars, I actually think (in terms of terms a deeming a fake contemporary vs. modern), since the genuine examples are of such better manufacture than their predecessor cobs. However, they're still early enough where most CCs are quite crude and thus pretty easy to spot by said "fabric". Anything TOO neat in terms of engraving and production technique is basically ruled out.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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1757 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2018  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher that could be as I have very little knowledge of Cobs and Pillars. Still ... when was the last time we saw any? Even if we look at Ringo's Collection and we go to the Eric P. Newman Portal then see Stacks June 25, 2009 Schaumburg Sale and Ringo's Latin American Counterfeit Collection - we see his primary Kleeberg's, some gold and platinum escudo CCCs (the usual types and a few surprises - which are pre-1771 (Portraits) and ONE 1767 CCC 2 Reale Pillar where John K. believes it is struck over a copper of some sort. Ringo's ENTIRE collection - ONE PILLAR - just saying - see lot 59. JPL
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2018  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PLENTY of CC cobs exist... minors up through 8s. If a CC collector doesn't have any, it's b/c cobs don't interest them, or they're only buying domestically.

Pillars, otoh - yes, VERY few minors. There are some 8s, however - I've seen perhaps 10-12 that I see as individually engraved and feel are legitimately contemporary.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2018  7:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well when you DIE leave me in your will ... its that SIMPLE.

LOL
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