Counterfeit 1911 Shilling

If it was an 'official' designation, it would not, should not and absolutely could not not be hidden, obfuscated or deleted.

This first:
https://www.PCGS.com/shared-orders

Then this:
https://www.PCGS.com/shared-orders/...ils/21393693
If suggesting websites, it's helpful to put the website here. (free tip)

- and he said clicking on 21393693 would take us to images of coins.

Yeh nah
Doesn't work

okay..

The shared order number takes you to the counterfeit coin slab numbers. I didn't say it would take you to images of the coins (that was an assumption on your part). Now as the shillings have a cert # and as they have the designation of counterfeit it shows that they were slabbed and then subsequently determined to be counterfeit. So how is that nothing? and how is that a TPG hit piece? I'm working WITH the TPG to get the fakes properly identified, I'm the one who had them contacted through a respected authorized dealer to get their grades cancelled and I'm trying to get people aware that there are high grade fakes out there. Now at least PCGS will be able to spot them and that will hurt the Chinese fakers and their distribution network in Canada, Europe and elsewhere.
Or are some people upset as I've denied them the opportunity to get their suspect coins slabbed?
As for seeing the images of the fakes, that is PCGSs decision. I will be showing 7 of the fakes tomorrow at a coin show here in Sydney and then those counterfeits will also be added to the PCGS database. The 2 MS65 slabs of counterfeit shillings should be with me in a few days (they left LA 2 days ago)

-I did click the shared order number and it came up with the 8 coin submission. The line 3 item is cert # 35021221 and line 4 is cert # 35021222. Both have the word counterfeit in the grade column.
- Yes, coins that are detected as counterfeit during the grading process are code 90 (and not slabbed). These were only designated counterfeit after they were graded and slabbed.
-Drake Sterling isn't just an online coin dealer. I'll be seeing him at the Petersham coin fair in about 9 hours. He is also one of the main dealers of high grade PCGS coins in Australia (perhaps the main dealer of the top end coins).
-Nearly all the fakes come from China. It is fairly safe to presume that these fakes are also Chinese in origin. If you can suggest a more likely source then we are waiting for you to name it.
-As for not posting photos or that you have done 98% of the research, Staff edit - removed insult. There are my high grade images in CAB of the obverses of 4 shillings (you only posted the reverse, but the sequence of interchanging obverse dies over 5 different years is much more telling), I arranged for PCGS to designate these dies as fake.
-So you spotted the fake 1911 at Heritage, but I spotted the fake slabbed 1914 in another forum. And which of us has identified 5 years of fakes? Did you spot the 1914 fake? How about the 1916 fake? I'm sure you spotted the 1917 fake (no, that was also me). Surely you spotted the 1925 fake? No Why not? At least you have arranged for PCGS to get high resolution images of both the reverse and obverse of those 5 years (and including the extra images when a year has 2 obverse dies). What? You have not done that?
- How is it despicable to reference the CAB article? I don't get paid for each copy sold (I don't get paid at all, I do it because I'm a numismatologist and enjoy researching and publishing aspects of numismatics). Besides this forum, where have you published? What original research have you had published?
-I have no intent of stealing your watermarked images. I can see examples of the fakes in my collection.
-Most, but not all the marks on the fakes are repeating depressions. What would you call the raised repeated defects? What would you call the rim lump at N of IND?
-So my images are not on CCF to your liking, is that a reason to throw a hissy fit?

Yes, And?
The feedback would be well deserved for any genuine shilling. That they were high grade fakes only became apparent by comparing the markers (both die markers as well as repeating depressions). I don't feel in any way embarrassed by the fact that I didn't detect they were fakes until Echidna gave the warning about that 1923 threepence (that you called genuine)and had me studying my collection. Just like PCGS I make the occasional mistake and just like PCGS I learn from it.
If your complaint is that the image is crappy, until I get the slabs in hand there is nothing I can do about it.Even then the taking of images isn't my top priority as I'm researching other topics (1920 penny, indian master and derivative hubs, '37 and '38 crown die types, die markers for the '53 florin etc etc).
Anyhow I'm off to Petersham in 5 minutes. Shall we call it a truce as our enemy isn't each other but the fakers trying to destroy numismatics.

I hope the time I invested here was worth something or had some value.




So long amigos.

##

Hi CoinOS. There is also a MS63 1914 shilling that Stevo62 posted in ACF. Steve pulled the image (and the coin from his set registry) on 8/3/18 (but a screen shot of the obverse remains in the ACF thread as it was posted by another poster). There is also a MS64 1916 shilling that I saw briefly today on its way from another collector to PCGS for a warranty claim. The reverse had the line between NG (matched my example that I had with me) and its obverse die rim had finning, the coin was purchased from Spain. That is an advantage of buying slabbed (PCGS) coins or having raw coins submitted through an authorised dealer, the warranty protection.
The slabbed fakes arrived in Australia (PCGS shipped them only 5 days ago and Austpost is delivering them tomorrow). I lent Eric (Drake Sterling) the remaining 7 fakes today to be sent for examination by PCGS. PCGS detects over a thousand fakes in submissions every month and very few are not detected and are graded, PCGS is open about the fact that they had 12 warranty claims last month (everything from counterfeit coins in slabs to misgraded coins, and that is worldwide and not just Aussie coins). Having these fake shillings get through is testament to how good the fakes can be. At least now PCGS may be better able to detect them.
That there will be genuine shillings with the same die markers (but not the repeating depressions) will make things interesting. I doubt the fakers used a genuine MS65 quality shilling for making the transfer die. Most likely they purchased genuine Unc coins very cheaply that had either a great obverse or a great reverse but with major issues on the other side (like ex jewellry mounted coins).
My next PCGS submission will be in May, won't be any fakes in it even though it will include shillings of the suspect dates (bet they take a real hard look at my stuff in future)

If the cert ID says Counterfeit then they're won't be supplied in a slab, you'll get them in plastic flip.

I'm going to edit out the name in your quote to address this in more indirect manor because this does get into a murky territory. II would just say to start that they have sued dealers in the past for knowingly submitting top quality fakes/doctored coins to try and help people cash in on a mistake instead of submitting it themselves.

The basic rundown with the guarantee is that if you are the submitter you don't get to profit from a mistake but they may assist in getting your money back if you have a trail when it comes to fakes that was good enough to get through.

The reason why I said it doesn't matter who submits though is because whether a collector or a dealer submitted it if a third party purchased the coin the guarantee still applies.

You were told you would have been eligible because you wouldn't have been the initial submitter, I won't type my honest opinion of trying to do it that way because it wouldn't be pretty. It may not work anyway. They may ask you where you bought it from and if the information doesn't match up with the submitting ect it may cause issues.

The long and short of it really is if you buy a mistake from someone you're generally covered, if you were the submitter they'll fix the mistake for free but won't give a windfall profit