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National Banknote Help...information, Surviving Population Assistance

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Pillar of the Community

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589 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2018  12:28 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Groszy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
If I were to ask for help with information on a specific bank, would any member be able to help? I know PMG graded notes can be searched for if you're a member (I am not), but raw notes...would there be any ability to get a good estimate on a bank...or, no?
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SteveInTampa's Avatar
United States
4637 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2018  04:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This was discussed here before, and you can read about it here, http://goccf.com/t/141859

And, this website has some good, general information, but no census.http://www.antiquemoney.com/national-bank-notes/
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2018  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Describe your note (charter #, series, and denomination) and we'll try to help.
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WheatBack's Avatar
United States
2850 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2018  6:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WheatBack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have access to the National Bank Note Census.. It's one of the most up to date databases. Post a photo of your note in question.
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 Posted 05/03/2018  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Groszy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Alright, well I lied about one National Bank. I'm interested in more information on two.

Both from Manistee, Michigan.

Charter 2539 and 2606.

The First National Bank Of Manistee and The Manistee National Bank Of Manistee.

The latter, the 2606, has two known notes, both $50 First Charter, the second one being recently discovered and sold on Heritage for 30.000. That's easy to gather from the bit on Heritage "As an added bonus, this is only the second note reported from this Manistee bank"

And from a book entitled "Michigan National Bank Notes 1863-1935" by Dr. Wallace G Lee, the bank had $4300 outstanding at its closure in 1910.


With 2539: the same book states there were $3370 large and $96,630 outstanding at close in 1933.

It states there are 11 Large known and 17 Small known, although I can only count 16 small notes by the Serial Numbers listed in the book. Attached.

National-Banknote-Help...information,-Surviving-Population-Assistance


But, going off of Heritage sales, there's an additional few...

3CBP $10: 1003-B, 1305-B
TY1 $10: E2295, D672, A962

And an additional large size $10 serial 2290-A sold on Stacks.

Stacks says it's the fourth first charter known, which would make sense by the three listed in the book and it being a new discovery.

Heritage doesn't say much on their listings, except "One of a dozen large reported on this bank" in 2013 and "A very scarce bank in large size, with just seven such examples recorded in the Kelly census" in 2002.

So...

There should be 14 known large notes and 19 known small notes (or 20, if you go off of Lee's count of 17, even though I only count 16)


Are there any more notes known, but not yet reported in the book or sold? I mean, had the new 2606 $50 not been offered for sale, I wouldn't have known about it, but anyone with access to PCGS searching ability should have been able to find out about it.


I'm just wanting to get a good idea on how many are known to exist.


Another question I have, though, is where do they come up with the numbers on antiquemoney.com and Heritage? "The Manistee National Bank Of Manistee in Michigan issued 1,347 sheets of $50 series of 1875 national bank notes." as found on antiquemoney and "issued just 1,347 two-subject sheets of 1875 $50s and $100s before its liquidation in 1901." on Heritage.

Am I missing a source for these amounts? Are they accurate?
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MeadowviewCollector's Avatar
United States
4409 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2018  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And an additional large size $10 serial 2290-A sold on Stacks.


In the scanned part of the page, the census lists a $10 VF but does not record the serial number or plate letter.

The Kelly census CD I have lists a Series 1875 $10 no serial number listed but the plate letter is listed as "A" with grade as VF.

I am about 85-90% sure that this represents a single note.

I would say the large size census count would be 13 notes for the FNB.
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MeadowviewCollector's Avatar
United States
4409 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2018  5:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Small size for the FNB I can contribute the following:

The Kelly census records 18 serial numbers. A962 was among the list. 2329F was listed by Kelly but not Lee


D672,E2295 were not listed by either.

Lyn Knight stated in an auction description back in 2011 that there were 22 small size reported. Odd though in 2013, he wrote there are 21 small notes reported.

Hopefully, a peek at either Track and Price or the NBN Census will reveal a newer count.

-MV
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MeadowviewCollector's Avatar
United States
4409 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2018  6:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Am I missing a source for these amounts? Are they accurate?


Unless I am mistaken, these amounts were taken directly from the National Currency and Bond Ledgers retained by the government.

The data was copied/transcribed years ago by interested parties such as these gentlemen https://www.nbncensus.com/pioneers.html

Generally, I figure the information is accurate with the caveat to check what is posted online and see if it matches up to what is mentioned in Kelly's book.

-MV

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WheatBack's Avatar
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2850 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2018  10:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WheatBack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the NBN census the population is as follows:

Charter 2539:
13 large, 22 small

Charter 2606:
1 large, which is the 1875 $50. The other one has not been added yet.

National-Banknote-Help...information,-Surviving-Population-Assistance
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