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NCLT - Collectibles Surviving Beyond The Upcoming Cashless Society?

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X2an's Avatar
Sweden
1078 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2018  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add X2an to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In Norway, fewer than 10% of people use cash. Sweden is also virtually cashless. Even beggars have card terminals due to the lack of currency in circulation. Finland is technically cashless. In some Scandinavian countries there are businesses that have "no cash" signs.


I beg to differ. Although certainly plenty of these statements are correct, cash still goes around. I am not the only one still using cash. Even if you are a cash-free person you will face difficulties every once in a while, primarily with market vendors and personal payments, not everyone has mobile payment apps. As for beggars, I have seen only one newspaper-selling homeless person that has a card reader, otherwise I've never seen this anywhere. I'm sure that more than 10% of Norwegians use cash, perhaps just not regularily. Haven't been there for a while now but I doubt the situation is very different from Sweden/Finland. There are cashless businesses here and there but many are typically where you make payments of 1000 kr/€100 per transaction, where most people including me would prefer to use card payments. I typically have very little trouble using cash. You're just a minority.



Very interesting! Although the director of the Riksbank (Stefan Ingves) has been pushing publicly for forced cash handling, it's nice to see action. I also want to add that the decrease of cash in Sweden is due to commercial demand; the Riksbank has constantly said they're only issuing currency that there's demand for. Private banks however have certainly sped up the transition. Also worth to add is that the Swedish note and coin series have been changed lately with massive demonetisations having taken place, so plenty of old currency has disappeared from circulation and as such it shows in the statistics (2016 and 2017).


Quote:
In some countries, you cannot take the bus without electronic payment. It is proven to be safer for the workers.

I don't know which countries you are referring to but I assume you are talking about buying you ticket on the bus. Here in Stockholm it is pre-pay only. No buying onboard the bus (saves plenty of time!) Travelcards and such can be bought at many different locations, mainly in supermarkets or newsagents, where I've never seen cash being refused.
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canadian_coins's Avatar
United States
2408 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2018  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian_coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't know which countries you are referring to but I assume you are talking about buying you ticket on the bus. Here in Stockholm it is pre-pay only.


Here's my reference:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-10538032

Buses in Stockholm have already gone cash-free. Strips of tickets or sim-based bus cards can be bought in advance, or payments can be made via mobile phones. After a series of attacks against bus drivers, Sweden's health and safety authority stepped in and told the bus companies they had to find a way of protecting the cash more securely. The result was that buses stopped accepting notes or coins.
Edited by canadian_coins
10/28/2018 9:26 pm
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MoneyPenney's Avatar
Canada
2982 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2018  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MoneyPenney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
For example, I have a friend who is a millionaire, but he chooses to have a normal sized house, a non-expensive pick up truck, etc. inside his house where not many people go is different matter matter. His having money is largely unknown, which is the way he wants it to be.
Every purchase being traceable is an invasion of this type of privacy.


A million is not what it is used to be.

For example, everyone who own a house in Vancouver is an millionaire since the price of a single family detached house is around $1.5 million.

Given the cost of living, a million dollars is nothing. You can't buy a house in Vancouver if you have a million bucks in cash.

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jst1dreamr's Avatar
United States
509 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2018  10:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jst1dreamr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We can wait to see how they take it when a virus deletes all their bitcoins.
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
9800 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2018  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A million is not what it is used to be.

For example, everyone who own a house in Vancouver is an millionaire since the price of a single family detached house is around $1.5 million.

Given the cost of living, a million dollars is nothing. You can't buy a house in Vancouver if you have a million bucks in cash.


While the concept of what you said is all true (I think more in urban areas where it costs so much more to live), The idea I was mentioning is not related to the amount of wealth.

A rich person who wants to keep off the radar will not be able to, and will have a new way for criminals to target them, if every purchase is traceable. ANYONE not wanting to be on the radar will not be able to enjoy their privacy. Again, being in a fishbowl is not a pleasant idea.


BTW - also remember that a million Canadian is almost a quarter less then a US million (~$763,152 as I write this). Almost 25k difference is, at least to me, a decent chunk of change or I would own several of the different coins I would like in MS condition
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Edited by Earle42
10/28/2018 11:13 pm
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Looney4Numi's Avatar
Canada
659 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  12:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Looney4Numi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@canadian coins

Quote:
good articles but as Picard once said, "Resistance Is Futile". There may be pockets of resistance here and there, but a Cashless Society is already underway. It will happen.

Actually, it was the Borg who told Picard "resistance is futile," but he still managed to resist. lol

Yes, a cashless society appears to be underway, but I stand behind all pockets of resistance. Will try to maintain my privacy until the bitter end. Definitely no chip for me.
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spru's Avatar
United States
12442 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  03:05 am  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'd imagine that precious metals NCLT will no longer have a denomination assigned to it. It is a redundancy anyway, since many of the coins are not legal tender.


What? NCLT is, by definition, Legal Tender. That's the "LT" part.
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Edited by spru
10/29/2018 03:06 am
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Eurocoin's Avatar
Finland
294 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  03:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eurocoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many of the common circulation coin types are already considered as NCLT in some minting years here in Euro zone. No need for every denomination in every year so they mint some only for collectors. In Finland cheapest set of eight unc coins (€3,88 face value) costs about €15 to get from the mint. So if you are putting date set together you can't find them from circulation. Same situation is in many other Euro countries too. In the future maybe all minted coins are for collectors only?
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X2an's Avatar
Sweden
1078 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add X2an to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Here's my reference:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-10538032

Buses in Stockholm have already gone cash-free. Strips of tickets or sim-based bus cards can be bought in advance, or payments can be made via mobile phones. After a series of attacks against bus drivers, Sweden's health and safety authority stepped in and told the bus companies they had to find a way of protecting the cash more securely. The result was that buses stopped accepting notes or coins.


Well, an article from a different time

Yes, I remember when they stopped selling tickets onboard. And from drivers I've pretty much only heard positives. And I understand why, as the driver isn't protected by a separating wall like they have in Gothenburg (still, I think). This was in 2010 and I can almost laugh when I read some of the old stuff. "Strips of tickets", that was a while ago...

The trams in Gothenburg have stopped accepting coins in their machines, but when I was in Oslo for a few years ago, cash, or atleast coins were seemingly accepted everywhere, including on buses.

I also want to add that the Swedish Riksbank has said (and stand by) that they do not see cash going anywhere in the forseeable future. They are simply quite passive on the issue. They have however been investigating about the possibility of issuing a digital krona. I have yet to understand exactly how they want to go about this.
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Canada
798 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JGG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Spruett, try spending it or depositing in a bank. They won't accept it. For example, the $20 for $20 boondoggle.
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canadian_coins's Avatar
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 Posted 10/29/2018  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian_coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Actually, it was the Borg who told Picard "resistance is futile," but he still managed to resist.


Actually, it was Picard aka Locutus...

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Earle42's Avatar
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 Posted 10/29/2018  5:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ummm... the very first time the Borg were introduced in season 2 ("Q-Who"), the Borg told Picard and all on the Enterprise bridge that "Resistance is Futile." It was their catch phrase long before Picard got his Latin/Borg function/name when assimilated (end of third season).

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vonigohcr's Avatar
Canada
663 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vonigohcr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Only on this forum could a discussion of post cash society and the impact on NCLT turn into a discussion on the migration of the Borg into the Alpha quadrant.
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Looney4Numi's Avatar
Canada
659 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  6:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Looney4Numi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the Borg told Picard and all on the Enterprise bridge that "Resistance is Futile." It was their catch phrase long before Picard got his Latin/Borg function/name when assimilated (end of third season).

...and Picard continued the mantra until he was freed by the resistance (a little help from his friends).

I stand with the resistance to the cartel's nightmarish cashless society.
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vonigohcr's Avatar
Canada
663 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vonigohcr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Back to the original thread

A cashless society is inevitable, whether it is 10 or 30 or 50 years out matters little. Adoption rates are likely to be different in different countries as populations are different but I expect integrated economies such as the Euro zone will go there first. There are significant technological hurdles that need to be overcome including hacker free electronic infrastructure and data privacy, hand held wallets (card/phone/whatever) and a overcoming the backlash when the population realizes that they can no longer conduct transactions in private and that all income or sales are subject to taxation including selling that old Lego model to the kid next door for $10.

There are pluses and minuses to the cashless society but the OP was regarding what happens to the numismatic hobby and NCLT in general in a cashless society.

My prognostications for what they are worth:
1) There will be a good deal less product out there. When governments realize there is no need to support mints and printers for coin & paper money, they will shut them down. Any product remaining will most likely be bullion rounds minted by third parties.

2) There will be less demand for product. You can see this today with stamps. As the need for stamps has declined, so has the market for philately. Without an endless supply of circulating coins minted annually, cash will become an anachronism for future generations and as such, numismatics will join the ranks of fringe hobbies practiced by a very few. Yes, there are still those who collect horse brasses and glass paperweights etc. even though the use for these items are long past.

3) The comment on valuation is spot on... NCLT values with very few exceptions will decline to bullion intrinsic value as the relevance of cash diminishes... not that a $20 coin with a murano glass ladybug glued to the face was ever relevant in commerce.

4) There will be a longer period where valuations are retained for ex-circulating coins due to historical significance. The reason there was a 1947 maple leaf issue in Canada or the short four year run for the Victorian Double Florin or the James II gun money issues from the late 1600's are examples of coins whose stories are intertwined with the events and society of the day and they will retain interest for many years to come... A magnet operated carousel with the Queen's head and $50 stamped on the bottom... Not so much.

5) While governments continue to allow the private purchase and storage of precious metals, there will be a market for bullion whether in bars or rounds. There are some bullion issues from private mints that have a strong following and this will continue. Some will purchase/collect for investment, some for aesthetics. That said, I would not be surprised in a future where all commerce is required to be conducted electronically, the personal possession of PMs will again be restricted as it was in the US from the 1930's to 70's and in the UK in the '60s and '70s as gold and silver can be used in private commerce/barter.

I won't argue that there will be resistance to a cashless society but I think, this side of the zombie apocalypse or the arrival of the Borg, it is inevitable and when it finally does occur, the future for numismatics is bleak.
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