Can Someone Explain When An Error Becomes A Varierty?

An error occurs by accident, and a variety happens by design.

It does seem if a certain error is common enough, or popular enough, it is treated kind of like a variety, at least in pricing guides.

An error is not a variety and a variety is not an error. Also, an error or variety is not a die variety. (Except under specific circumstances, if let's say a 1955 DDO cent was struck off-center) Anyway it like comparing Apples and oranges and canteloupes.

Simply put...

Errors are a result of mishaps in the actual mechanical minting process. Coins struck off-center, for example are errors. Coins struck on incomplete planchets, wrong planchets, struck out of collar, double struck, triple struck are also examples of errors. Each individual coin although similar in type is a "one off" coin and is therefore unique.

A variety is created when a planned design change occurs. 1960 and 1960 D large and small date cents, for example are varieties. 1883 Liberty nickels , with cents and without cents , are varieties. More recently, 1979 SBA dollars with wide rims and narrow rims are varieties. Small and large date cents of 1982 ...variety..

Then...there is what is known as a "die variety". Die varieties happen when an unplanned event happens during the creation of hubs or dies. They don't plan to make a hub or die incorrectly but it sometimes happens. A die that has been hubbed twice or more with each hubbing not perfectly lined up creates a die with multiple images. We call the coins struck by those dies doubled dies, tripled dies. quadrupled dies etc. depending upon the number of distinct multiple images we can identify. (Not to be confused with Machine Doubling, which can occur when a loose die moves during a strike)
When mint marks were added to dies, you could have multiple punches of the mint mark into a die creating a repunched mint mark (RPM) for example. The same can be said during the days when dates or partial dates were hand punched into dies. You can get a Repunched Date. These would be other examples of a "die varieties".

Die varieties can theoretically be traced back to a die, or pair of dies. That means a die with a specific anomaly, like the major 1955 Doubled Die obverse cent, for example, will create coins that are identical , with the identical doubling on each coin. The doubling is on the die. that constitutes one type of die variety.

So error.... mechanical issue

Variety....planned change

Die variety...detail on a coin that can be attributed to specific dies and as a result each coin struck will be completely identical. (Not taking die state into consideration, which is another ball of wax)

Some may argue that since the die has an error on it since it was improperly prepared that they are errors. That's a concept that is probably 60 years old or more. It's way outdated.

Some people confuse the terms "variety" for "die variety" and use then interchangeably. They have completely different meanings though.

Today and for the past 25 years or so, (at least) the concepts are as I described.

I hope this helps.

I agree with Bill 100%, and with Hockingzig's last post. Because there are so many people out there who fail to understand or just plain don't want to understand the differences in these terms, there is a LOT of misunderstanding as to what they are. It doesn't require a degree in rocket science - heck, it's not even difficult for my ten year old - to see the clear difference between them, yet we still cannot agree as a whole that these different terms are meant for and should be used for completely different things.

I, for one, do not care about a concensus - the terms are what they are, and they define specific things. Those who chose to remain ignorant can continue to interchange the terms just as they interchange 'to', 'too', and 'two' which are also completely separate terms that are to be used as intended.

Education - asking questions and learning from the answers - is the the only path to achieving a comprehensive understanding of any subject. Hockingzig, you've touched on a subject that has caused a lot of unwarranted strife here and in other places, but I admire how you learned from an educated answer. Good going!

And not to be completely blind to the educator - great explanation of the three different terms, Bill. I always admire your patience and breadth in responding to those who care to listen. I'm always ears to your posts.

I'll add a few that have caused a LOT of confusion over the years...

1. The 1937D 3-legged buffalo is NOT a variety nor is it a die variety. It is the simple result of an overpolished die, and gained its fame through a misunderstanding in what it was in the first place. Back in the day, people thought they 'forgot' to place the fourth leg on the buffalo, thus it was deemed a collectible 'error'. After being published in major guides, it gained even more fame, and even more misunderstanding. It has since become considered a 'variety' because everyone knows they don't publish 'errors' in the guides, otherwise they would have values for clipped planchets in the Red Book. Truth be known, there are thousands of different dies out there with the same effect...and are very common and completely overlooked by collectors. Only the one 1937D nickel gained its attention and kept it.

2. 1922D 'no D' cents...they are all examples of overpolished and worn dies...which was common in the 1920s. Dies were used for all the mint could get out of them back then. It was a simple fact that made these coins famous. There were no cents minted in Philadelphia that year, so ALL of them were to have the D mintmark. When collectors found coins bearing no mintmark, they thought they had found a very low mintage rarity from Philadelphia. It was a simple misunderstanding that made these valuable, and although the misunderstanding is gone, the market continues to balloon wild prices for these otherwise normal coins. Tell me...how much would you pay for a 1921S cent with no mintmark? Exactly...

3. 1942/1 dimes...1918/7D nickels...1918/7S quarters. One thing in common with all these issues. They indeed do have one date hubbed over another date, but NONE of these are 'overdates'. An overdate is a hand punched date over another date, like the many capped bust half dollars issued between 1811 and 1820 (among others). These dies were prepared without dates or with partial dates, and the final touch to the die was to punch the date into it. Overdates officially ended when the entire date was incorporated as a part of the design that was hubbed into the dies...basically all the coin series that began in the 20th century. Lincoln cents, Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, Standing Liberty quarters, Walking Liberty half dollars, Peace dollars, indian gold, and the Saint-Gaudens $20 gold. NONE of these coins, nor any issued after them, have any chance whatsoever of bearing an overdate.

What are these coins, then? Simple. They are class 3, design hub doubled dies. They are the exact same thing that caused small over large and large over small date coins (like the proof cent examples of 1960 and 1970). The entire design bearing one date was hubbed over the entire design bearing another date (or date size). They are ALL doubled dies...NO exceptions. Do I expect people to stop calling them overdates? Umm, no. But the fact remains that they are NOT overdates.

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List of improperly used terms for education sake:

1. St. Gaudens....the man made very nice designs, but he was no saint. His NAME is Saint-Gaudens and should be spelled as such WITHOUT abbreviating half of it.

2. 'Doubled die' has the 'd' at the end of the first word for a REASON. It's because the design is DOUBLED on the die. A 'double die' would note that two dies were used to create the impression. Not true. And furthermore, a doubled die should NOT be abbreviated as "D/D" - this is used for Denver (or Dahlonega) mint repunched mintmarks. A doubled die should be abbreviated with the side of the coin on which it appears...DDO for the obverse, DDR for the reverse.

3. It's "nickel" - not "nickle".

4. AU is "about uncirculated" - NOT "almost uncirculated".

5. 'Cleaning' coins is the act of using abrasives or acids to alter the surface of a coin. 'Conserving' coins is the act of removing harmful elements off the surface of a coin without affecting the metal itself, and still should only be done by those who know what they are doing and have had the patience to practice doing it correctly.

6. Coins are 'minted' - books are 'printed'....never the other way around.

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And finally some advice: Don't ever assume that a dealer with money and a lot of hot air has a clue what they are talking about when it comes to 'knowing' about coins. Most of them know the game of making money on coins, but fewer than half of them have a clue about how coins are really made and can give any intelligent advice on any of the above topics. I have nothing against dealers, most of them are an honest crowd - but WAY too many new collectors have banked their collections on the so-called knowledge of mouthy dealers who are quick to offer bad advice on how to collect or care for a collection.

Having said that, there are still hundreds of dealers who really know their stuff, are honest, and really care about the hobby. Your job as a collector is to read, focus on the knowledge provided by those who aren't taking your money, then find the dealers who agree with all the knowledge you've gained from known reputable sources. Do the homework! It's fun, educational, and if you're patient you'll find that with time and experience you'll know more than half the dealers at the shows.

Please,more! I need a little time to digest all of the tidbits but I can take pretty good chunks at a single bite so bring it on. Oh, by the way,you forgot one, it is EF not xf, as you once so kindly reminded me(see, it does stick).

I TTHHIINNKK the size of my brain was DoubleD!

Seriously, thanks to all who have given us (new guys and gals)
a hand.
It has been a real learning experience for me personally these past few days on this forum, and I for one am glad to have found it.
I will say this is by far my favorite part!

Even among the "experts" there is no consensus about what does and does not constitute a die variety. Ken Potter and J.T. Stanton would argue that ANY defect on a die is a variety. So they would include die breaks, die gouges, die dents, die clash, overzealous die abrasion, etc.

James Wiles and I would call the above "die errors", and restrict the term "die variety" to things like doubled dies, repunched mintmarks, and repunched dates. In the end, it really doesn't matter what overarching category you file these defects under. As long as you understand their nature and origin, that's the key.