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 Replies: 32 / Views: 6,523 |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Believe what you guys want, have flat earth and tin foil hat meetings if you want as well. Just do the collecting community a favor, learn that disagreements in grading which could have a dissertation written on it does not mean fraud which you guys are implying and accusing them of.
I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to see people with little to no experience or who just fell something throw around accusations that lead to people down the line being mislead and tricked just as some of you where which is why this nonsense keeps getting repeated. Are their lower tier grading companies that engage in that sure, but PCGS and NGC do not have to do that.
Argue the grading itself, don't just say random feelings and act like it's a legitimate point like people who think that vaccines are a government conspiracy
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4227 Posts |
basebal21, you're not making any valid points. You're speaking in generalities, with a lot of degrading comments thrown in, and not addressing the actual issue being discussed: the coins people have seen in-hand being slightly downgraded instead of receiving a kiss of death designation. Have you seen the coins in question? No, then you're just defending the company blindly. Are there people that degrade (pun!) TPGs without warrant? Yes. Maybe even to some degree here. But perhaps it's time for you to go sit in a corner and allow the people that know what they're talking about do the heavy lifting.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
basebal21, you're not making any valid points. You're speaking in generalities, with a lot of degrading comments thrown in, and not addressing the actual issue being discussed: the coins people have seen in-hand being slightly downgraded instead of receiving a kiss of death designation
But perhaps it's time for you to go sit in a corner and allow the people that know what they're talking about do the heavy lifting. My apologizes I will try smaller more clear words for you since you want to take this approach. It was perfectly clear to people who know what they are talking about that I was addressing the people making the insane claims that grades depend on money spent and who submitted etc. Is that clear enough or do I need to break it down more? It was even clearer which I literally stated (but hey logic and reason can be hard when driven by feelings) that a grading discussion can occur without the conspiracy nonsense. I guess you just didn't understand that though so I will try and make my posts more elementary level in the future in this thread. So to try and make it simple as I would explain to a child, the issue here is the conspiracy nonsense that was being pushed by people but if someone wanted to have a real grading discussion that could happen if there was someone with the intellect to do it. I haven't addressed the people that could so far. My apologies for not wanting people to be lied to and mislead |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5589 Posts |
Basebal21 .. There is no need to be condescending towards fellow collectors. I would imagine that some of the people that you are talking to DO, in fact, have a great deal of experience(maybe more than you) and that includes me. I have been collecting Canadian coins for over 40 years, have 2 college degrees and have looked at 10's of thousands, maybe 100's of thousands, of coins. If you want to step down from your Mensa pedestal and talk reasonably, then do so. We are talking about the Cook coins and the obvious fact that PCGS disregarded the obvious, ugly cleaning and just downgraded them by a step on a great number of coins. Just read some of the posts that Sid has made on this and other coin sites about what the coins looked like and graded when HE owned them before the GREAT auction of HIS wares some years ago. Many of the Cook coins looked to be ground-in with VIM or other caustic that he used. I have no problem with the coins that actually were regraded to be "detail", but even some of those were a reach.
If these coins were in something other than a Heritage auction and the owner was someone other than Mr Cook, then those grades would be infinitely different. If you want to check out my credentials on Canadian coinage, ask around .. you'll find that I would leave you in the dust. I have more than one internet moniker so be careful who you point fingers at.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Why is it so hard to understand that I was addressing the conspiracy theories that some of you were pushing about how grades depend on who submitted it? This is rocket science. Grading is an entirely different discussion when conspiracy theories are left out of it. Even know you are still trying to push conspiracy garbage about how the legitimate TPGs grade which is exactly what it is. If this was a lower tier TPG sure you could possibly have a point, but some of you seem to be more interested in attacking me for pointing out the facts so I will respond in kind. If you cannot distinguish between a grading standard discussion and conspiracy feelings well....... Edited by basebal21
07/24/2019 6:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5589 Posts |
"but some of you seem to be more interested in attacking me for pointing out the facts" Basebal21 .. The above is your quote from your latest response. I have yet to see you produce a single "fact" as you so state.... we'd love to see it. Each of us has our own opinion and I believe that it DOES make a difference if some select upper-tier folks, or prolific submitters, submit something vs an every-day Joe collector. Anu TPG can SAY that it doesn't matter, but I have seen countless submissions that come back with one grade and then are resubmitted, some times through a more well-known entity, and it gets a different grade. You are not going to change your mind and I'm not going to change mine, so we go on as we always have. I don't trust ANY TPG and feel that I can grade better than what I see in plastic slabs .. to each his own. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
Quote:
. I've spent far to much energy and time responding to nonsense like this. ...and have an amazing record for never backing any (what you call) facts with a source others can research and "learn" for themselves. Anyone wanting to verify that last statement can easily look back through CCF threads of the nature where anyone suggests PCGS might not be credible in even a tiny way. They will find our CCF member basebal coming to bat for PCGS no matter what the issue. And PCGS is said to be "right" an overwhelming number of times ... with only words to back it up. Well..OK. I can remember just one time where an issue of PCGS legitimacy was being discussed. I repeatedly asked for the source to find where I could read for myself and see where I was wrong about PCGS. I was told to read the PCGS website. I asked if this was a serious reply and was assured it was. And now the pattern starts once again: Expect an ad hominem response. Expect deliberate ignoring how an ad hominem responses is defined as self acknowledgement of defeat. Digging the hole deeper each time and choosing to believe credibility is added while the opposite is likely true. A visit to at least one more forum I know of will show this phenomenon is not unique to CCF. For some, PCGS can do no wrong. For people who know to buy the coin and not the slab, they can see through the fictions and and realize TPGs are simply companies designed to make money fro the hobby while providing a service that appeals to the human "need" to have an "expert" give their opinion. But wait! There's more! Now we have a CAC expert to assess the coin experts already looked at to say if the coin is high or low for the grade given...although the grade may change if the coin were to be cracked out, unaltered, and resubmitted! However, newbies need to understand just how much marketing has intruded into this hobby and how much a very subjective business has gained an artificial reputation as being THE last word and highest authority for a coin's condition. Until the artificial value/grade assigned to a specific coin is repeatable each time a coin (unaltered) would be broken out and re-slabbed - its a system faith-based system. No wonder desire and emotion proliferate where verifiable facts are almost non-existent. The Beany Baby affect is alive and well. Beware. Disclaimer - as always: A hobby is about fun. If a person likes slabs/CACs for what they are, then great! Go for it! Slabs can be fun, and the hunt to make a top registry set (or just a great set with high/colored labels/grades on the slab) is surely enjoyable for many (genius marketing move by PCGS to make their product more desirable also). |
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Moderator
 Canada
10458 Posts |
There is no conspiracy here. This discussion was never started to be about a conspiracy theory. If you knew anything about the Cook Collection, and how George Cook handled his coins, you'd know exactly what we were talking about. I am a serious PCGS Registry Set player - I know all to well how strict PCGS is with their coins.
The Heritage before and after pictures of some of Canada's rarest coins is sickening - and yes, they were downgraded by PCGS due to cleaning (the 1911 silver dollar, the only one in private hands is a perfect example - it went from SP65 when Belzberg owned it, to SP64 now). The debate here is - we know George cleaned almost every coin he touched, yet PCGS only body bagged a few hundred out of the entire collection - the rest are graded (but look different if you compare older auction photos), and yes, many slipped a grade point...
Obviously - this thread got derailed... why would you folks push your own agenda here when the thread title and original post have nothing to do with what you are preaching from the soapbox?
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1984 Posts |
Basebal21,
You criticize people here as if they have no experience with grading companies. I have submitted to NGC, PCGS and ICCS. Probably altogether I have shipped out between 1000 and 2000 coins for grading. I suspect that SPP-Ottawa has sent at least that many. And, of those coins, probably 90% have been small cents. I am playing the PCGS registry set game (as others on this Canadian forum do) and I have become quite familiar with how PCGS looks at high grade small cents. I can say with a high degree of certainty that PCGS has allowed some George Cook cleaned coins to avoid the cleaned label that would have been body bagged in most cases. So something here does seem fishy.
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Valued Member
Canada
93 Posts |
I'm having a Southpark moment here and I've learned something today - never ask a serious question in the middle of a pissing match. I thought that it was a good question and I'll go elsewhere for an answer. CCRS flashbacks again.
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Valued Member
Australia
338 Posts |
The question is I guess, did the name associated with the collection impact the final assigned grade. The answer to that is most probably we'll never know unless you buy a coin which you know has been cleaned from this collection, break it out of the slab and submit to NGC or PCGS again. It's easy to go down the route of saying the name impacted the result but think of the risk the company takes on if that was the case. The damage to their reputation is significant, the coins themselves lose value and the whole grading system is called into question. For the sake of the grading costs and publicly associated with this collection, it's somewhat hard to believe a mature, listed company would take on that level of risk. I could be wrong but it doesn't make sense from where I stand. This is not a defense of PCGS, I've had PLENTY of disagreements on grades, especially US coins! I'm just throwing out some alternative ideas and hopefully making people view things through a different lens. I've sent coins in for grading which have been "lightly" cleaned by others or a long time ago which have come back with straight grades, albeit low MS or aUNC (and visa versa). So I think there is some wriggle room for cleaning with PCGS and NGC, the term "Market Acceptable" comes to mind. I don't have any special affiliation with PCGS or submit the coins under any kind of collection and yet I've had straight graded results from cleaned coins. I'm sure many of us have had similar experiences. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
665 Posts |
I have followed this discussion with some interest. It appears by objective standards that some of the Cook collection coins have experienced significant damage while in Cook's possession but this has not been reflected in all cases in a commensurate downgrade when resubmitted to a TPG. The question I have is if one of these coins was resubmitted without the historical provenance (i.e. breakout and resubmit raw) and a significant downgrade is given... what is the liability from the TPG for the loss experienced... I assume there are terms in the contracts about breakout etc... is this what would limit or exclude the TPG from liability in such cases? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
667 Posts |
PCGS does not have any liability or guaranty on cracked out coins.
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Valued Member
United States
206 Posts |
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Why is it so hard to understand that I was addressing the conspiracy theories that some of you were pushing about how grades depend on who submitted it? This is rocket science.
Grading is an entirely different discussion when conspiracy theories are left out of it. I have seen many discussions like this over the years. Both sides have an opinion and neither can definitively prove their case. One side has the opinion that the top TPGs are professional and money / the amount of business does not sway them in any way. The other side has the opinion that money always corrupts. There is also a middle ground that says both are possible. It is similar to people who believe in God arguing with an atheist. As such, it only serves to inflame people. Given that we are all collectors, arguing is counterproductive to the community. |
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Replies: 32 / Views: 6,523 |
First Page
Posted 07/24/2019 4:53 pm
