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How Far Back Can We Go? Sixth Edition! Ended At 1380 Waiting On 1379

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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2020  05:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That milreis is marvelous, @pepactonius!

France 1720, 1 livre d'argent, Louis XV, Paris (A).

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

This oddity of a coin, 3.74 g of pure silver instead of the ordinary 917/1000 used for French silver coins, was minted during two months in 1720. It was intended as the highest denomination in metal in what was to be a paper money based economy implemented by the Scotsman John Law.

1720 saw the culmination and downfall of John Law's "system," where gold and silver as means of payment were to be replaced by banknotes. Law - apparently intelligent and charming as well as adventurous - had attained almost unlimited power over French finances: He ran the banknote issuing Banque Royale and had become minister of finance, after having convinced the Duke of Orleans, regent for the 10 year old Louis XV, that paper money was the way out of bankruptcy for the hard pressed French government. The problem was that the financial backing for the banknotes was purely speculative fortunes to be found in the newly established French colony of Louisiana. That was ran as another of Law's ventures, the Compagnie des Indes, the business of which he freely mingled with those of the bank. When the fortunes failed to materialize, the "system" broke down, the banknotes losing most of their value. (Google "John Law Compagnie des Indes" if you want to know more about this rather fantastic episode.)

Needless to say, France returned to metal money. Banknotes, regarded with the highest suspicion, were not introduced anew until the end of the century.
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7996 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2020  07:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wonderful coins and fascinating history the last couple of days, including some real stunners starting with @keith's 2 reales. Hope we will see more of your coins.

I have a humble 1720 Saxony-Poland 1/12 thaler (=2 groschen) today:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2020  9:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will have better pictures soon for this one.

1720 - Southern Netherlands - Jeton (silver)
Leopold Philippe d'Arenberg

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

The Duke's castle (Château d'Arenberg/Kasteel van Arenberg) survives to this day in Heverlee, near Leuven, in Belgium.
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 11/17/2020  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1719 -- Kingdom of Great Britain, 1 farthing:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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Russian Federation
5186 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2020  07:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379 How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Sweden, Ulrika Eleonora, 1 öre kopparmynt, 1719-20.

I'm not sure if the date on this one is 1719 or 1720, so I'm posting it today just in case.

My next dated photographed coin is 1717, then 1710 and 1699, I think. I'll probably have to check.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34506 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2020  07:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice one @j1m! Here is a brother for your coin:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7996 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2020  08:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@paralyse, that is a very cool jeton on several levels. I suppose @1c5d could provide the historical context (I have no clue what "Fast, but Within the Law" refers to), but I will just note (a) it seems strange for a token from this part of the world to have a legend in Italian (not Latin), and (b) d'Arenberg is also the name of a famous Australian winery, named after the founder's wife, who I assume was a member of this family. (Maybe @princetane also knows their wines?)

My last 18th century copper from Papal States - Ferrara, this 1/2 baiocco from regnal year XIX of Clement XI , November 1718-November 1719.
Perhaps too much vino for the diemaker, who blundered some spelling on the reverse legend.
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
Edited by tdziemia
11/17/2020 08:07 am
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paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2020  10:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdz the actual quote is "rapido sì, ma rapido con legge" -- from Torquato Tasso, poet and author of "Jerusalem Delivered" in 1581, from whence it is sourced.

A rough translation is "quickly/swiftly, but lightly"

It is the 2nd motto of the House of Arenberg (the original was Christus Protector Meus, "Christ is my protector/defender")

There is an indirect connection to John Law: Philippe II (Duc d'Orleans) composed an operatic treatment of Tasso's play (Suite d'Armide)

Tasso references Charybdis and Boreas in the stanza when setting out the difficulty/apparent futility of the Crusaders' task of freeing Jerusalem from Muslim rule:

Il saggio Capitan con dolce morso
I desiderii lor guida e seconda

Che piú facil saria svolgere il corso
Presso Cariddi a la volubil' onda

Tardar Borea allorche scote il dorso
del'Apennino e I legni in mare affonda.

Gli ordina, gl'incammina, e 'n suon gli regge
"Rapido sì, ma rapido con legge."

- Tasso, Gerusalemme Liberata, canto III (2)
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
11/17/2020 11:38 pm
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2020  03:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Philippe d'Orleans was perhaps more interested in the fine arts than in the French finances. So how convenient when John Law showed up, ready to take care of those, swiftly and lightly.

In 1718, Law's "system" had run for two years and had two more years to go, before its crash.

France 1718, ecu, Louis XV, Paris (A).

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Between the 5th reformation (overstrike) of coins in 1715 and the 6th in 1720, a new set of gold and silver coins were introduced in 1718. They had lower weight than the 1715 issues, so could not be manufactured by overstriking older coins. The 1715 ecus weighed 30.6 g, the new ones only 24.5 g. Still, their value was set to 6 livres, the same as the old ecus. The value was stepwise increased, as was customary during the financial chaos that had reigned for decades, until they topped at 12 livres in 1720. That same year they were demonetized and overstruck with the 1720 design (which I showed three days ago), but then handed in for the original value of 6 livres.
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NumisRob's Avatar
United Kingdom
18138 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2020  05:08 am  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't compete with erafjel's lovely French ecu, but here's a humble 1718 British halfpenny:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
9395 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2020  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1718 -- Kingdom of Sweden, 1 daler (emergency coinage):
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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Russian Federation
5186 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2020  04:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I can't compete with erafjel's lovely French ecu, but here's a humble 1718 British halfpenny
Far less humble than my 1717 British farthing...

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379 How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

I heard somewhere that this is actually a pretty rare type. I found it in a cheap bargain bin, though, so I would've probably been happy even if it was a common one.

EDIT: I'd love to get one (or a bunch) of those emergency dalers, though - they're really neat!
Edited by january1may
11/19/2020 04:25 am
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 11/19/2020  06:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1717 -- Kingdom of Sweden, 1 daler (emergency money):

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
9395 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2020  06:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1717 -- Electorate of Brunwsick-Luneburg-Calenberg-Hannover, 1/6 thaler:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Sixth-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

(To me, this always looks a lot like a British shilling of the era.)
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7996 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2020  07:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gorgeous coin ... and great hair


Quote:
A rough translation is "quickly/swiftly, but lightly"

Thanks for the correction on the translation, and for the background. Legge is one of those Italian words where the meaning depends on the part of speech: legge the noun means law, but legge the adverb means lightly (in modern usage, it would be leggermente). Similar to the words light/lightly in English.
When I first saw it, I was reminded of musical terms (like allegro con brio), but then thought the "law" meaning made make more sense if it were a political token.
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