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1865 2c Repunched Date, Toning?

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 Posted 05/06/2020  11:40 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I am learning about this series. I read it's the first USA coin with In God We Trust. I like the repunched date FS-1302. But I wonder about the uneven toning? Is this original? Has it been cleaned in the past and has been gradually retoning? There is some stuff inside the date numbers.
1865-2c-Repunched-Date,-Toning?
Edited by livingwater
05/06/2020 1:02 pm
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GrapeCollects's Avatar
United States
8938 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2020  1:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The RPD is very nice.

As for the toning, it has to do with the alloy the coin is made from not being mixed properly and giving it a different look. Usually because of the nicer eye appeal they sell for a modest premium.
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CoinHunter27's Avatar
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5887 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2020  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a great example of that RPD, which you correctly attributed as FS-1302. It looks to Original to me. The planchets back then were all different mixes of colors due to improper alloy mixes.

-CH27
Collector of U.S. Coins, Varieties, and Colonial Coinage
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2020  8:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FS-1302 I don't see any real issues with this coin. Not a real tough RPD but a very easy one to spot, and not often found in grades above VF so this is a keeper. Grade looks to be between AU58 & MS62 hard to tell from the photos alone. Could have a touch of rub/wear but I don't see any signs of obvious cleaning either and that's good. I'm in agreement with grapecollects on the color as well, more likely improper alloy mix in the metal rather than toning. Not at all uncommon in this series.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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United States
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 Posted 05/08/2020  09:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks your your advise and information. I bought it. Stay safe.
Edited by livingwater
05/08/2020 09:38 am
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 Posted 05/13/2020  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I looked closer at this coin today. I noticed there is some doubling on the reverse letters. I don't know if this is normal for FS-1302 variety or something different? See pics.
1865-2c-Repunched-Date,-Toning?
1865-2c-Repunched-Date,-Toning?
1865-2c-Repunched-Date,-Toning?
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westcoin's Avatar
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 Posted 05/14/2020  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes what you are seeing isn't actually doubling in the normal sense of the word. It's not die doubling, but something called "Longacre's Doubling."

What could possibly cause this effect? There are theories, but no definitive answers. The first, and most popular reason is the master die was placed into the die steel to form the master die. In order to add details, the engraver would shave the sides of the die punch , leaving a lip on the punch's sides. The engraver could have added an 'extra hard punch' to the punch thereby leaving the shaved sides effect to the die. This is also known as a Hob or punch shoulder. The "shoulder" would eventually wear off as the die was used, and is why not all coins from that die will show the effect. Those showing this effect are likely early strikes from the die.

Then there is another theory:

After punching the design elements into the master die the engraver would move the punch a microscopic bit. This would produce a 'lip' on the die, and the effect would be to enable the metal to flow more easily into the devices in the die. The theory is that this improvement to the design striking would also have prolonged the life of the dies.

Remember, this effect was added to the master die, not individual dies, and as such is not a doubled die, that is because the master die is only hubbed one time, and that, by definition cannot produce a doubled die. Use of a die would wear away the effect, as would die polishing, since the Longacre effect is delicate and not intended to be reproduced as a part of the design, rather it is done to improve the strike of the coins.

So it is not actually a form of "Die Doubling" and can also be found often on Indian Head cents, and many of the Seated coinage.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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westcoin's Avatar
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 Posted 05/15/2020  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The more I look at these photos of the close up reverse areas, I think it may also be Machine Doubling.That is when the coins slips in the die as it's being ejected too quickly. Leaving a shelf like flat area of impression always facing the same direction in this case. Here is a link to another old CCF posting by Coop that has some photos from my old friend JT Stanton (RIP) one of the authors of the Cherrypicker Guidebooks. JT was first and foremost a collector of unusual coins; variety and error coins primarily, and he was an amazing macro coin photographer, back in the film days. Take a look at his black and white Indian Head cent photos of Longacre Doubling to see the difference to your coin.

http://goccf.com/t/337201#2883459

After looking at JT's photos scroll up to see a good example of Machine Doubling or "MD" which is also again, not a real form of doubling and offers no added value, and in some cases will actually hurt value of a "perfect" strike if it occurs. Machine Doubling is not desirable at all, Longacre Doubling is acceptable as it comes from the die making process.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
05/15/2020 8:51 pm
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 Posted 05/16/2020  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Westcoin, thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge. I didn't know about Longacre's doubling. From the link examples you provided it seems my coin is Machine Doubling, some call it Strike Doubling.
Edited by livingwater
05/16/2020 08:47 am
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