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 Replies: 22 / Views: 4,567 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
The other half was originally from the Isle of Man, by one theory, and was used as the reverse on a series of coppers dated 1830 that circulated there. Posted below the Charlton PE-9B, which is the one with the ship obverse, is the Isle of Man token that shares its reverse...or from which its reverse may have originated. That could have worked in either direction, of course, with the PEI token serving as the die source for the IOM halfpenny. These were both struck with some pretty scuzzy dies to begin with, so grading can be all over the map. My hunch is F for both of mine, but I can certainly be persuaded otherwise. Please reply with photos if you have a high-grade example, or the All-Canadian version!In my "real" collection, the Ships piece is Withers 2095 (Davis 23), and George III, who evidently needed God to save him ten years after his death, is Withers 2090 (Davis 20).  
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
Edited by daltonista
05/12/2020 5:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5239 Posts |
Who made the dies for those coins? If all were made by the same firm it would make sense that they would use some dies that still had life. After all, who in the mother country cared what sort of coins the colonies were getting?
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
That Ships token is a beauty! I'd guess a grade of EF for the type (if not higher), but I'll let those that know better weigh in. Yet another token that's on my "To Get" list.
I notice from your photos that the tokens were actually struck with two different reverse dies; eg. differences in the quatrefoil and letter placement (notably the K of 'Publick' and N of 'Accomodation'). I wonder if there is a variety of the Isle of Man token that shares the same reverse, or whether the one was made in imitation of the other.
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
After a quick look around the web, I found an ebay listing for the Isle of Man token that does indeed have the same reverse as the Ships token. https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1830-...AOSwep5c1xkqSo the same die used to strike the Isle of Man token was used for the Canadian token! An interesting link between PEI and the Isle of Man Edit: I just see now that the IoM token listed was actually designated a 'contemporary counterfeit' by NGC and not encapsulated. That's pretty neat, as it links the Ships token to the reverse of an imitation rather than the original IoM token. Edited by blargish
05/13/2020 01:16 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1058 Posts |
Blargish, I confess. You caught me! Withers does indeed identify a slightly different token as the source for the Rx on my example of the CH PE-9B (above). Their description of the semi-Canadian Ships token includes this: "Rx from the same die as 2092." I really wasn't trying to be deceptive by including the photo of the W2090 IOM token, even though I "knew better," but since this is a forum about Canadian tokens, I didn't figure anyone would either notice the minute differences or care about them on an Isle of Man counterpart. Also, I happen to own the W2090 I used in my post, but not the W2092...close enough for government work, I told myself. Either way, your scholarship certainly caught me off guard. As for NGC's rejection of this piece, I don't know what to make of that. Do they reject Blacksmiths? British evasions and non-regals? Busts & Harps? Machin's Mills halfpennies? My list could go on and on, but in this case the IOM W2092 was recognized as a forgery at least as far back as 1904, when Davis published this about that halfpenny token:  You will note also that Davis makes no mention of copper as an option for the Ships version; that is, for the CH PE-9B that started off this thread in the first place. And Withers specifies brass only, as well. I wonder when the copper versions listed in Charlton started turning up, if at all. Best to all, and wash your hands!
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
@daltonista , haha I didn't mean to call you out on your token! I've always found these tokens (ie. Breton 995 and 996) and their link to the Isle of Man piece interesting, but your post inspired me to do a little more digging  Like you, I am confused as to why NGC would reject the piece. I do not have access to the Davis reference, but I came across "Coinage of the Isle of Man" by Philip Nelson, 1899. Strangely enough, regarding the 1830 token, he purports the brass 'imitations' to be pattern pieces! They are apparently much scarcer than the copper variety. I post an excerpt below.  I'd like to know what prompted Davis to claim that they are contemporary forgeries, as they do appear to be of pretty good workmanship. Additionally, like Davis, Nelson only reports a brass composition for the Ships token.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
Great catch, blargish! Your scholarship has motivated me to look a little harder for that brass counterfeit pattern to add to my "real" collection, so you have my thanks for that. In return, here's something you might enjoy...in case you haven't already got it bookmarked: http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnote...l17/ch01.htm
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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New Member
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
I've not seen a better Ships Colonies token than that one - I also think probably EF for issue.  |
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New Member
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Corresponding IOM Halfpennies:   |
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New Member
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Pridmore's notes:  His explanation for the different alloys found:  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
 mrbadexample, many thanks to you for adding Major Fred's coverage into this discussion. I have all his books except India, and it never crossed my mind for a second to see what he might have to contribute. Are you collecting these from the Davis/Withers side (like me), or from the Charlton side? Happy Holidaze, eyeryone! Tom
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Valued Member
United States
178 Posts |
mrbadexample, I am fascinated by this token as I find cross-Atlantic mules to be interesting. Thank you for posting the Pridmore reference! I had not come across it before. Is it certain that Pridmore's no. 62 was also issued by John Caine/McTurk? There seems to be a bit of confusion surrounding it; as posted previously in this thread, Davis claims that piece to be a contemporary forgery, whereas Nelson claims it to be a pattern coin. In any case, it was almost certainly struck before the 1815-dated PEI mule since by that time the die is in a more worn state and too large for the flans being used. I was lucky enough to pick up this spectacular example from the recent Doug Robins sale which NGC graded AU58 (but it's mint state in my book!)  I've been on the hunt for the corresponding IOM coin, but no success thus far... Seems to be pretty difficult to come across.
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New Member
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
Is it my imagination or is there no QUOTE function on this forum?  Tom, I have these as part of an Isle of Man collection. Who is Charlton?  |
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New Member
United Kingdom
13 Posts |
blargish, that's another lovely token. Better than the Pridmore plate piece I think.
As far as I can see, Pridmore took his information from Clay, who states: "Some time back evidence was furnished me from the daughter and son-in-law of John McTurk (the former parties still living) confirming the above facts"
I think that Clay's (and by extension Pridmore's) explanation of the dies passing through different hands accounts well for the different metals used. I don't believe that the brass 62 I posted above is a contemporary forgery. Nor do I see it as a pattern.
Is it an example of Pridmore 62 that you are looking for?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
Quote:
Is it my imagination or is there no QUOTE function on this forum? At the top of the page, mrbadexample, next from the end of the "Format" line of icons, it's the one with the rightward-extending red arrow. I'll get to Charlton in a minute or two...
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1058 Posts |
...where the two tokens originally under discussion here are listed as PE-9A and PE-9B. The former is the Canadian version mentioned in Pridmore's more as "Bretons No. 995," and the latter is the IOM edition with which I kicked off this topic. First the token, and then the current edition of Charlton:  
"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti
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Replies: 22 / Views: 4,567 |
Posted 05/12/2020 8:42 pm
