I saw this one today and saw an issue with it, in that it's most left sunshine ray was broken off and laying on the coin close by. I know there is a name for this kind of issue, but I forgot what it is called. I once saw an issue with the same kind of coin and year, a small part of it's edge had broken off I guess while being struck and had imbedded itself into the coin. A strike-thru, perhaps?
Incidently, while you are looking at it, if any of you St. Gaudens type folks or anybody cares to chime in, what would you grade this coin at, going by this one side? It seems that these particular coins are just graded differently by the TPG's, and I have no problem with that if true, but I was curious as to what you "home" graders would say that it was.
Having looked at a few of them, but do not own one, I would say a 63 or 64 but I could be way off.
and here a couple of coin auction sites I had never heard of before. it's nice to watch some other places other than the usual. between the two, you are bound to find whatever kind of coin you are interested in... so tired of the bay, stacks, heritage, even Amazon. these sites have got coins of all shapes, sizes, types and values. take a look... you might have to mess around with the search filters to find what you like to see tho, they are loaded with coins...
and after maybe somebody can answer my original question? thanks all... mike
The coin has a few issues on the reverse that would give me concern. The eagles beak looks strange, the arrow on reverse behind eagles head is cooked, some of the letters look strange and the broken/displaced tip of the left arrow looks like something that would happen on a counterfeit.
I support your opinions, by way of the obvious that has already been pointed out...
1. this 1907 high relief is not in a slab for a reason. And it is in too good of shape otherwise to not have it authenticated. I go by the columns on the buildings, the reach of the rays on the reverse, the clarity of the tail feathers, the meshing of the letters above, but the beak really bothers me. I have seen 66 examples which did not have such a sharp one.
however, perhaps the most damming evidence of fake or counterfeit is that if it was on paypal, they would do something if it was a fake. there seems to be no such "guarantee" options available. In other words, you bought it, you own it. counterfeit or not. At this point I am not 100% willing to say that it is a certain fake however. As I said before, I have seen such break-off or whatever it is called issues before on genuine st. gaudens. but as some of you have pointed out, someone may be in for a very expensive lesson...
thanks all... mike
but besides that, those sites have some pretty Bueno coins... nice to have a change once in a while.
A possible Omega Man counterfeit? THis one if fake is very high quality. I see a few obvious die markers on the reverse a die scratch (raised) line going through the top wing and a small part of another die gouge just at the claw into the wing. Can't really get a good look to see if there is the Omega mark inside the claw.
The Omega High Relief is one of the finest counterfeit coins ever made, and they sell for a pretty good amount even as counterfeits to collectors now days. I held and examined a few, the first one was with Dave Bowers at the first ANA Summer Seminar I took, so long ago, he had it to show just how good the fakes could be, and all of us in the class thought it was real until he told the story and showed us the marker points to tell.
https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v11n47a15.html Just a small link to read a bit more about the Omega Fakes. They are an interesting coin in their own right, but I'm not sure this is one, it looks really well made if fake.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.
I think we may have a winner. You have to blow the image up about 400% but there does appear to be something inside the eagles claw, could be the omega.
If so it shows that his fakes are NOT the great wonders everyone says they were, The first thing that struck me as odd about this coin was that "This is a high relief. It was struck at least three times. Why are the LOW relief and rim details so weak? They should have been brought up fully on the first strike and then just made sharper on the next two while the high relief areas filled. Instead they are ill-defined."
Thanks Gary, hard to tell positively from these photos though. Your forum posts on the NGC board last year on the $10 Indian led me on another search for more recent information, and I pretty much ran dry. I'm not convinced that the OP coin is an Omega high relief, but also don't think it's real (why I mentioned the tooling marks). The Omega Man High Relief coins present so much of a good story it's worth delving in so why not...
If it is indeed an OmegaMan counterfeit then In my estimation maybe $500-1000 over the value of gold as a semi-rare novelty and story piece, they were the correct purity of gold and weight to the grain.
Technically the reason I learned he "signed" or more correctly marked his creations was, they were so well done and passable, he didn't want to buy them back accidently. But who really knows? There are some wild conspiracies on the story out there from he was a mobster or an ex-mint employee, Living in Tucson, AZ or lives in Europe or the on East coast. They were from an original dies that were stolen, he created the dies by hand. I've heard a lot of stories over the years, the only thing that's true (so far), is that nobody has ever figured out correctly or uncovered the person responsible, and a lot of very well done, high relief fake fakes are floating around still (20,000 is the number often associated with his counterfeit mintage). An interesting coin tale for sure, along the likes of still surviving 1964 Peace dollars secretly in collectors hands (like the 1933 Saints). Would be nice if a deathbed confession does eventually come out, but I'd doubt it, and unless ironclad, how we anyone be able to verify that claim.
The best guess story is about a known Mafia gangster (which with some Google-Fu) can be unearthed easily enough "it's in a PDF letter" linked online.
As far as I know the Omega HR Saint was discovered/uncovered in 1972 through the work of early ANACS authenticators. I find the claim of 20K made to be dubious at best as only around 8500 total grading events show up at the various TPGs for all the 1907 High Relief coins over the years. That would include crackouts, details and regrade attempts. Nowhere near the number if there were 20,000 fake ones floating around in the wild unslabbed and now easily identifiable.
Thankfully with TPGs like PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc. this is much less of an issue today, and why one should always really know what they are buying if it's not got a guarantee in cash on it. So while it's still worth some money it's not worth anywhere near the value of a real high relief saint is worth.
One must be careful selling an "Omega HR Saint" as it is still a counterfeit and laws do exist that frown on transfers of fake money isn't a good idea and could possibly land one in serious legal trouble or jail. I have seen one slabbed by ICG marked as counterfeit of course. Video link below.
The story would make a good book, if enough information ever surfaces. We all like a good mystery and I think the Omega Man counterfeiter certainly would qualify for that.
NOT my video but well done by a fellow young numismatist, he shows an example in hand then goes on to mention many of the various theories on them.
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"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.
Well, the bid is still stuck at $5,800 after all of this time this coin was brought up, so it seems that a number of people smell a rat. Never heard about the Omega coins... interesting stuff. two days still to go. as already pointed out, this should be 10k to 15k coin if real, if a real 64 would even be higher. let's see if anyone bites on it. clearly tho, there is a disturbance in the force...
The point is that why would anyone, if they were honest and had a real coin, just leave it ungraded and take a chance on getting half or less than half than it is worth? Or do we have an innocent seller who is possibly just not making this prudent grading judgement call?
It is my opinion that it MAY be counterfeit because I do not see that the case or clues for this standard has not yet been definitely established, altho the case or possible clues for it has already been pointed out by several here. But could these perceived differences be because of "normal" or otherwise somewhat common or uncommon anomalties in the coin itself, if any such things exist? Are all such St. Gaudens normally free of such differences?
All of us have seen several wear differences between real St. Gaudens. They are all different from each other in one way or another. This is where or why the grade often comes in at, right?
Is the broken-off sunshine ray a clue? Btw, why would a counterfeiter "sign" his own work? Pride... like he is "putting one over" on the Coin World... like a master crook writing a letter to the cops daring them to catch him?
Is this Omega guy a crook or an artist? If bought at 20k, that would make him a crook if this is an omega. Or, if this is an Omega, is it an "attempted" fraud crime? Do the Hindus still speak of karma? (sorry, had to put that in).
I will message the seller and see what I can find out about the coin's history or details, if any are available.
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Posted 05/22/2020 9:28 pm
