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Repunched Or A Doubled Die?

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 Posted 11/30/2008  12:31 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
How easy is it to tell doubled dies from repunched letters and dates?

Here are a few coins where I've questioned whether they are repunched dates or doubled dies.
The first is a Norway 50 ore, where I see doubling in the 1948.
However, were any dates "repunched" as late as 1948--or did this have to be caused by a doubled die? What best explains the different serifs?
Sometimes it's a challenge to look beyond what we want to see and consider a more plausible explanation that takes everything into account.
Looking at the photo below, what do the details suggest on this coin?

(click to see full resolution)
Repunched-Or-A-Doubled-Die?

The second coin is a Sweden 1904 2 ore, where I noticed something very interesting on the "N" in the devices, as shown below in the detail.
What do you think is going on here? Can this coin be easily explained by a doubled die?
While it could be a double die, I think if the N was offset that much by a second hubbing, I would expect to see doubling in the top serifs of the E.
While there is slight doubling in the base of the A (second detail), I'm not positive the two are related.

Repunched-Or-A-Doubled-Die?


On the other hand, I consider a sure sign of a repunched device when there are different offsets and directions between adjacent letters or numbers.
A good example is this 1 ore coin from 1858, where the two digits "85" are unmistakably repunched in the date.
Here the 5 is pretty obvious, and the 8 shows a distinctive pronged shape where an 8 was repunched below the main digit (top detail).

Repunched-Or-A-Doubled-Die?

One good way to see how a date was repunched is to create an outline of the date and see how it relates to the underlying digits.
In this example, I cannot match both RPDs to any position of the date outline in the second detail.
However, moving the 8 and 5 independently best explains the RPDs, as seen in the third detail.
This could mean the digits were punched independently (not using a gang punch),
or possibly the date was punched over an already dated die with a different punch setting--or lastly a die from a previous year was re-used (ie an overdate).
But here I don't consider an overdate necessary to explain what I see on the coin, since there is no clear evidence of a second digit under the last 8.
Just a few initial thoughts--please feel free to add comments below.
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 Posted 12/01/2008  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My problem with determining re-punched dates from such tiny and often amorphous extra features is that I can never be sure it's not just a dirty or Grease Filled Die.

The 2 ore coin has me at a loss. There is clear serif separation but I would not call that a double die. I had an Italian 1 centesimi dated 1905 with one of the I's clearly double struck, with one serif being 1/2mm above the other. Yet, there were no signs of any errors elsewhere on the coin. I really wish I still had those pics =(
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 Posted 12/01/2008  10:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know what you mean...it's easy to read into a coin when you want to see something--especially with overdates.
That's interesting about the 1905 Centesimi, which perhaps corroborates that individual letters were re-engraved/repunched during this time.
A lot of marks in digits I simply attribute to die gouges, unless I've seen something before or it's a raised feature that clearly follows a digit's contour.
I think it's also been a great help to look at IHCs with Snow's guides in hand, and get a sense how RPDs look.

Here's an interesting similarity on a 1867 Finland 1 Markka, obviously from a time when letters were punched into the the die:

Repunched-Or-A-Doubled-Die?
photo credit: Juhan M.
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 Posted 12/02/2008  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your example is exactly what I saw on the Italian 1 cent coin.
Still, what's the point in re-punching a single letter or number if it's the same as the previous one?
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 Posted 12/02/2008  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The first punch looks a tad high, but nothing worth re-punching. Of course, we cannot see what's under the top letter.
Perhaps the original punch was broken or old (see how weak the top left serif looks). This one actually looks triple-punched.
In the case of my 1904 Ore, I'm beginning to think two different punches were used, or perhaps a punch was used to repair a bad die since it would be tough to fix a hub?

Here's another 1 Markka (from 1866) with a similar repunching:
Repunched-Or-A-Doubled-Die?
photo credit: Juhan M.
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 Posted 12/03/2008  01:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That means that close inspection of individual coins by mint officials took place back then/there. Today I believe a mis-struck coin would be discarded at most mints.
The 1904 Swedish coin, you can see the extra serifs, but there is no trace on the other parts of the N, like you see in your first markaa. Could it be a quick fix for a greasy die causing an incomplete striking of the letter?
In that case, only the top of the N may have come out, so when it was re-punched there was no lower portion to jut out from the sides. Hmmm....

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 Posted 12/03/2008  01:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Could it be a quick fix for a greasy die causing an incomplete striking of the letter?
Wouldn't it be a little easier to clean a die in use than punch in a new letter?
Something I'm thinking here is the problem was noticed at the die production stage, because once a die is in use, it's been hardened to the point where a quick fix is difficult without a lot of work backwards.
Obviously we'll never know the reason...but I'm going to check other 1904 2 Ore coins for a pattern.
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 Posted 12/03/2008  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll keep my eyes open as well. Thanks for the stimulating thread =)
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