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Dispel My Cultural Ignorance, Please

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Valued Member

United States
284 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  10:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I'd appreciate an opportunity to expand my cultural awareness if you'll allow. These gold pieces were all on the same piece of string when I bought them, decades ago. The first measures about 2 cm. The others 13 mm. The smaller are quite thin. I've managed to gain an idea of the dates, but I'd like some confirmation. I'm unfamiliar with the alphabet, the calendar, and the culture that gave birth to these. I'd like to learn all I can about them.

Kevin

Dispel-My-Cultural-Ignorance,-Please
Dispel-My-Cultural-Ignorance,-Please
Dispel-My-Cultural-Ignorance,-Please
Dispel-My-Cultural-Ignorance,-Please
Valued Member
Netherlands
176 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eligius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are you certain these are gold? They look like brass tokens used as ornaments which are modelled after gold coins from Turkey (first, third and fourth one) and Egypt (the second one).
Valued Member
United States
284 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
[Are you certain these are gold] Don't know how to extract a quote!

I am absolutely not certain! But they probably are. They present much more like my old gold coins than my old brass coins. Can you read their lines?
Valued Member
Netherlands
176 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eligius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They look a bit crude an differ from than the original gold coins that is why I think they are brass. Do you have weight and diameter?

1 Front:It reads: Struck in Constantinople (= Istanbul) year is 1223AH (= 1808) and year of reign 29
Back: Tughra (= name of sultan in fancy lettering, should be Mahmud II)

2 Both sides do not belong together
year 1118 and Tughra (upside down?)
Struck in Egypt year 1237 and year of reign 18

3 First photo is second one of number 2
Struck in Constantinople. year 1255 (=1839) and year of reign 2. Sultan Abdul Mejid

4 Tughra and flower
Struck in Constantinople (= Istanbul) year is 1223AH (= 1808) and year of reign 8

Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These appear to be imitations made for decoration, all with base metal and/or corrosion showing through. Coins were used for decoration on clothing in many areas of the Ottoman Empire and beyond. The coins are inscribed in Ottoman Turkish which was written with Arabic letters (and for numismatic purposes can usually be read as Arabic). They follow the basic pattern of official gold coins. The toughra is an elaborate monogram made from the name of the sultan. The inscriptions read "was struck in Qustantiniya (Constantinople)" or "was struck in Misr (Egypt)" with Hijri accession date and regnal year.
Edited by Kushanshah
11/04/2020 9:16 pm
Valued Member
United States
284 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2020  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thank my kind professors. To me, the learning is golden.

Kevin
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16836 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2020  8:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Brass imitations usually do not have the details I'm seeing on these coins; I would assume they are genuine gold (albeit well worn, and damaged from the holes). It might be worth taking them to a jeweller to do a (non-destructive!) test on them.

Ottoman coinage of the 1800s is a confusing mix of coinages and denominations. The Ottoman Empire was fragmenting, with the Sultan only retaining nominal authority over regions (such as Egypt) that attained de-facto independence and protection from one of the European colonial powers. Their economy was in ruins as a result, and this bled through to an unstable coinage system.

But to answer your questions more directly:

The language on these coins is Arabic, written in the cursive Arabic script known as "Naskh" which is commonly used to write Arabic today. Being a Semitic-derived alphabet system, Arabic scripts are written and read from right to left, as opposed to the left-to-right of English and most other Greek-and-Latin-based scripts. Numerals are easier to decipher than the alphabet, and are the standard "Eastern Arabic" numerals commonly used on coins throughout the Islamic world today (apart from Iran and Afghanistan).

Calculating the date of issue of an Ottoman coin takes some maths. Each coin has two date-numbers: the "accession year" - the year the Sultan came to power - and the "regnal date" - the number of years that have elapsed since the Sultan came to power.

Using your first coin as an example: the "accession year" is 1223 (this is using the Islamic "Anno Hegirae" calendar), and the regnal year is "29". Now, we cannot simply add 29 to 1223, because 1223 was "year 1", not "year zero". So, the actual year of issue (in the Islamic calendar) of this coin is 1223 + 29 - 1 = 1251. Now we need to look up a table or website to convert AH 1251 to an AD date; in this case, AH 1251 began on 29th April 1835 and ended on 17th April 1836 (AH years are only 354 days long); since most of this time period falls within AD 1835, we would reckon "1835" is the converted date, though saying "1835/6" might be more accurate.

A cultural note about your coins. It is traditional for women to wear coins on festive occasions (such as their wedding day). Poor families, or modern families living in an age where coins generally aren't worth much money and are difficult to punch holes in, use imitation coins for the same purpose. The imitations are often derogatorially referred to by Western coin collectors as "belly dancer tokens", as that would be their primary use in the West, but their function and use in 19th century Turkey or Egypt (when your string was assembled) would have been much more honourable.

It would probably be of more value as an intact string, rather than as separate coins, especially as the coins would be considered "damaged" by collectors. Given the cultural tradition of punching holes in small gold coins for decorative purposes, finding a genuine example of one of these coins that hasn't been holed is a rare find indeed.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Valued Member
United States
284 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2020  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is fabulous learning for me. I will follow the advice to keep these together and urge their next owner (whenever that comes to be) to do likewise. They are now held in five stapled coin flips.

I rechecked my post above after receiving feedback. My first pair of images is valid, as is my second and my fourth. My third pair from the top is faulty. The image on the left in that third set is a duplicate of the right side image in my second set. A correct image of that side of coin three is below. Before placing it into a new 2x2, I weighed it: 0.381 gms. The lines of measure are marked at millimeters.

At time of purchase,four coins the size of the two below and one slightly larger and thicker were strung together.

Dispel-My-Cultural-Ignorance,-Please

I also tore the fifth coin from its holder to secure a good image. Putting up five coins seemed abusive. I now see it would have been proper. It weighs 0.385 gms.


Dispel-My-Cultural-Ignorance,-Please

After closer study I'm much more sure the metal used is gold (stained in the appropriate spots by the perhaps centuries old loop of string I disposed of. My interest in the metal used exists but is dwarfed by my interest in the use of the metal and when and where it was used. I would never dream of removing the ancient staining. I hope no one would.

Kevin
Valued Member
Netherlands
176 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2020  11:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eligius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your photo's are confusing me. I assume the last, newest photo you showed is nummer 3 in your first post. Diameter is 13 mm and weight 0.38 grammes. This then is the coin shown in the copy I made of the Krause catalog. The date is 1255/2
Dispel-My-Cultural-Ignorance,-Please
Valued Member
United States
284 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2020  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I'm still learning to use the site software. I apologize for confusion. I thank you for your patience. And your research. Let's try this. There are five coins under discussion:

Image 1 left / Image 1 right- - - - - Is Coin 1, the large coin

Image 2 left / Image 2 right- - - - - Is Coin 2, the first of four smaller coins

Image 3 left (problem image) / Image 3 right- - - - - Image 3 left is a retake of image 2 right
Image 3 right is one side of coin 3. New image 1 should be the left image here.

Image 4 left / Image 4 right- - - - - Is Coin 4 another small coin

New image 1 (single side)- - - Is the other side of Coin 3.

New image 2 left / New image 2 right- - - -Is Coin 5

Kevin

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