1834 Mexican 8R With Counterstamps

The eagle's right wing has a "chop" mark on it which appears to cut it off. The coin has at least 10 clear chops.

Is the host coin real? Great question. It is listed in Riddell - the number 237 - a contemporary forgery known to be in circulation in New Orleans BEFORE 1845.

To me the question becomes - can the counterstamps be real?

Now that you mention it, they look awfully well-placed too.

Good comments.

The split in the planchet is caused by the fact that the host is made of German Silver which is a Non-malleable metal. It often splits and has no flow lines. GS strikes are often mistaken for cast copies because of the lack of flow lines. The split exposes the host as a fraud. So after that punch, this coin could not have circulated freely.

Second, as to position of "chop marks", some counterstamps were definitely placed strategically. The FVII and YII stamps of the Philippines always are ON TOP of the Liberty Cap on Mexican C&R 8Rs. Only counterfeits show the C/S on the Eagle! The inference is that the Royalty (Ferdinand VII and Isabella II) are overcoming Liberty. Remember that Mexico had revolted against Spain so the free circulation of coins proclaiming "LIBERTAD" from Spain was not liked in Philippines by the Spanish officials.

The Thialand counterstamps were always positioned between the uppermost rays on the C&R coins.

The Bank of England always positioned the "Head of the Fool on the neck of tghe Ass".

It is merchant chops that are usually not positioned.

On Cap and Ray 8Rs, the area under the eagle's tail is always a target for merchants as was the surface of the Cap itself. These two spots are also favorites for bankers to place test and cancellation marks.

Yes, the host coin - the 1834 Zs OM 8R with the small eagle (Riddell #237)is a counterfeit struck on a German Silver planchet. It is one of the two most common contemporary circulating counterfeits that I am aware of.

That particular eagle die was used in a second mating with an 1842 Zs OM cap. It had a very long life and was even recut at some point so there are 3 primary varieties. You can also date the strike by the degradation of the die. This is a late version. I own or have records of copies struck in debased silver, Sheffield plate, silver washed bronze(brass), copper and German Silver. The counterfeiters used several types of planchets. The German Silver copies are the LATEST and most common.

So the key to this coin and the authenticity of the counterstamps is actually it's metalic composition.

What bothered me initially is that the YII counterstamp looks like an original. Contemporary counterfeit 8Rs with a REAL YII stamps are known but are extremely rare. So I was really looking at this one as a possibility. All of the known YII punches can be found in an article in the October, 1959 Numismatist, but that is another story. I was bothered because how could a late US made forgery get to Mexico in time to be shipped to the Philippines to be counterstamped? Once I saw the split in the planchet caused by the counterstamp - that question was resolved.

The point of the post is that German Silver was NOT made at the time in history when the YII counterstamp was in use.

Look at Krause under the Philippines and you will see that the YII counterstamp was used from 1834-1837. Coins dated AFTER 1838 are considered counterfeit applications. In fact 1837 dated coins are far harder to find than those dated 1834 (which is the most common date in my experience). This is likely why the forger picked an 1834 host.

But was this host coin actually made before 1838? All we know from Riddell's book is that the debased silver versions were known to him before 1844. He was not aware of the GS versions of this counterfeit.

So when was German Silver available to counterfeiters who made the 1834 Zs OM coin?

For anyone not familiar with my earlier posts on dating counterfeits by their planchet composition, you should be aware that German Silver was NOT readily available to anyone in 1837. That is the year that Feuchtwanger introduced his "metal" in the US. To make GS you need to use a closed crucible. You see one primary component of the alloy is zinc and the others are copper and nickel. The problem is that in an open container zinc BOILS before either copper or nickel melts making an alloy of the three metals impossible. But in a pressure cooker (closed crucible) the metals can be made into the GS alloy.

Therefore, because the forgers used GS - you can date the manufacture of the "1834" host to sometime after 1837, which makes the YII counterstamp a forgery. This in turn means that the other counterstamps used on this particular coin are also forgeries.

It is a "cheap" host on which you can apply forged counterstamps and make a huge profit.

I suggest that everyone make copies of the photo so that in the future you can avoid these counterstamps.

The buyer here was totally swindled out of his $300+.

Just one final comment.

No one seems to have noticed that the eagle on the coin in question here matches my avatar.

My avatar is the eagle side of this same forgery - my favorite fake!


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Excellent lesson in numismatics, thank you for sharing your knowledge.