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Comparative Scanning Of Coins For Variations?

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  04:49 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
These are some thoughts that I have regarding the future of authentication.

Optical scanning and comparative scanning technologies can read and compare human fingerprints for identification purposes. It seems that a similar technology could be easily applied to coins.

I at one time collected Bust Half Dollars by Overton variety. Anyone familiar with that classification realizes it is primarily based on the identification of spatial variations between elements of the individual working dies.

It would seem that it would be possible using the fingerprint approach to compare coins from any series of coins to look for variations. Earlier coins created with individually crafted dies could be scanned for subtle die varieties that collectors are not even aware of.

Likewise it could be used to scan for deviations and errors made by forgers thereby assisting with authentication. It might be possible to detect repairs as well.

Rapid identification of World coins for beginning collectors would be possible if a large enough data base was created.

I know I can't be the first to think of this because it is very obvious, so does anyone know anyone pursuing this line of thinking?

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Singapore
631 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  05:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What you say has merit and I agree.

Even though, a similar technology exist, it's still gonna be a monumental task to adapt it
to numismatics, as our hobby inherently has so much grey area in terms
of actual coin features, eg. coin condition, dents, flaws

I think ultimately it's all about the money, someone will do it if there is monetary gain.
If there's too much trouble and risk then no one will do it. And we are a niche group.
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oriole's Avatar
Canada
5246 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  05:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that it is fundamentally correct and a good idea. There is one already for modern world coins that works quite well.

Getting a good enough database for ancients including the worn ones would be quite a lot of work, I think.
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  07:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The best way to compare high resolution images is to
overlay them and closely examine the combination for 'doubling'.
Good for finding varieties and identification of fakes.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  11:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
sel_69l May I ask how you do an overlay so that you can see both images at once? As you may be able to tell my computer skills are very limited.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Rapid identification of World coins for beginning collectors would be possible if a large enough data base was created.


That's pretty much how the coin scope app works, though it is not persice enough for varieties or authentication. It wouldn't do well on ancients either.


Quote:
May I ask how you do an overlay so that you can see both images at once?
You would have to change the images opacity.
Valued Member
United States
284 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My take on this -- for what it's worth:

As to the final product of this discussion, the graded coin, I opine, its future is fixed. It is as fixed now as long ago when the grading scale numbered zero to seventy came of age. Why? Because the computer's numbers now, like the zero to seventy numbers then, are desperately needed, may I say, "required."

As to the underlying process that leads to the product, that is, an objectively analyzed and graded coin, consider a caliper in use in the eighteenth century. The ability of a machine to transmit a measurement in the form of a number has gone unquestioned well into this century. A modern caliper, a computer, impresses me as an advance in the science of machine based number assignment to measurable (i.e. gradable) phenomena.

Acceptance of the measure will take time and a toll, methinks. In contrast to a computer, few there are -- these days -- who'll disagree with a caliper. I read a sage reference to economic forces. To wit: it'll be done when someone sees a profit in it. Not so says me. A need to cast doubt on a caliper in defense of one's livelihood waxes rare. A last wall of defense will be the fact that the zero to seventy system relies heavily on eye appeal. The defense will falter.

There has never been a use for a caliper in determining the eye appeal of any of its incredible creations (eighteenth century coins and pocket watches to twenty first century guided missiles). Eye appeal will finally rest where it has ever rested -- outside zero to seventy. It rests, and has always rested, nowhere but in the vast chasm between buyer and seller. In the matter of eye appeal, current subjectivity will still reign; computer objectivity will never be called upon.

Doubt not: the new -age coin collecting caliper will come.

Kevin
Edited by Kcm
12/24/2020 2:30 pm
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ Swamperbob: unfortunately my pictorial computer skills are very limited as well.
I I need this sort comparative picture analysis,
'I need a little help from my friends'. (apologies to the Beatles)
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  5:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gincoin43
Quote:
You would have to change the images opacity.


How is that done?

I have no clue.

Can it be done with coins saved as JPEG files or PNG files? All of my coin pictures are in one of those two formats.

Do I need new software?
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34428 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@swamperbob, perhaps a little bit of what you are envisioning is already in place with the "coinoscope" app for smartphones? It is free and when you take a pic of an unknown coin, it offers several that are close matches. Of course the AI isn't perfect, but for relatively modern (20th and 21st Centuries) coins, it seems to work quite well.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kcm I was actually focused on coin authentication and die typing more than grading. Grading is a swampy mire and I agree with you that a computer lacks the necessary ability to evaluate "eye appeal" because it is totally subjective.

Computer comparison would have the ability to display differences in the design of two coins proving they were struck from different dies. It is like scanning for a fingerprint authentication. It seems as if a computer would be tailor made to detect both Counterfeit coins and
die varieties of counterfeit or genuine coins.

Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  6:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How is that done?

What program are you using for image editing? The steps to do it will be different per program, but I will happily find you instructions for whatever you are using. Usually there are layer settings and you can change the alpha value(opacity) of each layer(individual picture).
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2020  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gincoin43 - You ask


Quote:
What program are you using for image editing?


My photographs are all either jpeg or png. I do not have an image editor on my laptop as far as I know. What would you suggest? If such a program may have come already installed on this laptop what would it be called?
Valued Member
United States
257 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2020  07:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bjherbison to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There may be simpler programs that are suitable, but a free and powerful image editor is Gimp.
https://www.gimp.org/

Learning all the features would be hard, but I've just explored and learned a few features I use regularly.
Valued Member
United States
284 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2020  07:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@swamperbob,

Yeah, I guess I should try to be more explanatory in my posts. I got your drift, but failed to put my own within reach. When I used the terms "grade" and "grading," I had in mind all the numismatic properties TPG's concern themselves with except for eye appeal. As to that property, I wish they'd keep their opinions out of the mix. Many coins who've spent their whole lives on a battleground appeal to this man's eye more so than the lustrous cousins whose lives were spent in holders albums and safety deposit boxes.

Kevin
Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2020  11:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but a free and powerful image editor is Gimp


Gimp will most certainly work.
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