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 Replies: 21 / Views: 2,713 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
Not sure if this is the best forum category, so please move if there is a more appropriate one. I picked this up last year at a good price and I'll likely submit to PCGS sooner or later. Recently though, I've been trying to understand how they view toning vs. "environmental damage". I'm just curious if folks here think this coin will straight grade with PCGS (or NGC). Ideally, I would prefer the reverse to look more consistent with the obverse, but the dark toning doesn't bother me too much. Thank you.   |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6514 Posts |
Have you given this an acetone bath? What is going on around the E in DIME on the reverse?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Looks like ED to me, doubt acetone will help. Details coin, I'm thinking.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8938 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5825 Posts |
Even if it straight grades, you'd be spending ~$100 on a ~$50 coin.
And if doesn't straight grade, you'd be spending ~$100 on a ~$20 coin.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
591 Posts |
Quote:
Even if it straight grades, you'd be spending ~$100 on a ~$50 coin.
And if doesn't straight grade, you'd be spending ~$100 on a ~$20 coin. Interesting comment Kanga. So a couple follow-up questions: - PCGS grading fee is $22 for coins valued under $300, where do you get $100 from? I would never just sign up for the PCGS club to send in a single coin. Looks like the $249 level gets you 8 grading vouchers, and is the best deal, so I'd include this with other coins and my cost would likely be close to $25 for just this coin. Am I missing something? - Straight graded, this 1926-S Mercury dime has a greysheet value of $190 at XF40. So why do you say "$50 coin"? - Is there a general rule of thumb that a "details" coin is valued somewhere around 40% of a straight graded coin? Just wondering what your $20 vs. $50 is based on. Thanks. Edited by one_fine_dime
01/14/2021 2:29 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
That Dime is environmental damage not toning . EF-40/45 Details .  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
When I bought this coin, other than the suspect whatever it is at the "E" in "DIME" (which chafemasterj pointed out), I just thought the reverse had a nice "circulation cameo". But learning more, I'm understanding that this kind of toning can be deemed "environmental damage" by TPGs, as many of you are suggesting. Quote:
That Dime is environmental damage not toning But PCGS uses the term "toning" in their own definition of "Environmental Damage"  97 Environmental Damage - i.e. corrosion, coating (lacquer), excessively heavy toning, etc.https://www.PCGS.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt697 - Environmental Damage. Environmental damage includes such problems as corrosion, excessively dark toning and verdigris. Most of these problems arise from improper storage, either in a humid, warm, or extremely bright environment, or from burial in the ground or in the sea.
One of the more interesting aspects of an Environmental Damage call concerns toning. While natural toning is simply often a product of time, and to some collectors signifies an original coin, it can take on many forms. When the toning forms in an excessively dark, splotchy and unattractive pattern, it loses appeal to a great number of dealers and collectors.
Because one of the tenants of PCGS when it was formed was "sight unseen trading," it was determined that coins which were deemed "unattractive" by a consensus of the graders would not be put into holders. A prospective bidder would likely be faced with an unpleasant surprise when he received the coin from the seller.
Shown below are three examples of what we're referring to. Sure, the toning may be natural, but even if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there would be few eyes that would find any of these to be beautiful. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
Ok , we have a good discussion going on here about Toning vs. ED . Any other members would like to voice their opinions on this topic ? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
"Details" coins come in all shapes and sizes. I've seen slabbed "details" coins with beautiful obverses and only a reverse rim gouge that I felt were worth up to 80% or even more of a typical trading price depending on scarcity. This particular example is well below average (in my opinion) in eye appeal, and I would not value it at more than 30% of market value tops.  Edited by Coinfrog
01/14/2021 6:44 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4846 Posts |
I think the details value can also depend on whether or not the reason for detailing can "wear out"
For example, a cleaned XF coin can be worn down to a VF grade and virtually all signs of cleaning will be wiped out, even if it were cleaned pretty harshly. I would be comfortable paying VF money for an EF cleaned coin.
On the other hand, a bent XF coin will have no opportunity to become a straight graded coin again. I wouldn't ever be interested in a bent coin, but if I had to throw a value on one, it would probably be 1/5 or less of the FMV in the same straight grade.
This one is kind of an edge case, it would probably wear out fine, but if any of that corrosion is too deep, it may be too far gone, It also has low eye appeal anyway even if it were straight graded. I would probably pay high F to low VF money for it, maybe a bit less. So maybe $30-50 IMO.
Edited by Adam_E
01/14/2021 7:16 pm
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Moderator
 United States
15403 Posts |
Honest question from a member looking for opinions - many of which have been offered.
I say the coin is naturally toned due to environmental damage ... and to me lacks eye appeal.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5394 Posts |
That coin is definitely ED and will get 97ed at PCGS . Just not a very nice coin in my mind . You could probably do much better by being selective . I doubt that piece is a fifty dollar coin . Also when you do the math 50 bucks us about right to certify a single coin at PCGS these days when you factor all of your costs. Grading fee , shipping both ways packaging cost to get to the PO etc, These days we certify nothing unless an ANACS special , the coin is over 200 Selling price or an interesting VAM or other variety . Simply not a good use of your very hard earned dough ! Edited by Pacificoin
01/14/2021 7:39 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
Quote:
I would not value it at more than 30% of market value tops Quote:
I would probably pay high F to low VF money for it, maybe a bit less. So maybe $30-50 IMO. Ok cool. Again, greysheet for XF40 is $190, I paid $52. Quote:
This particular example is well below average (in my opinion) in eye appeal Quote:
It also has low eye appeal anyway even if it were straight graded Quote:
...and to me lacks eye appeal Quote:
Just not a very nice coin in my mind Don't get me wrong, these are all legit opinions, and generally consistent with the quoted text I included earlier in blue from PCGS. I'm just curious why the reverse "circulation cameo" gets no props. And clearly, we're only talking about ED on the reverse...no one here feels the obverse would not straight grade, right? (just rhetorically as PCGS would obviously considered both sides of the coin to make a final assessment, and it seems if one side has severe dark toning then the whole coin gets ED'd, right?) http://goccf.com/t/129321Here's 25 pages on CCF of members posting "circulation cameo" specimens. I guess in a formal technical sense, the reverse of this 26-S has "low eye appeal" and "environmental damage" due to significant dark toning. But at the same time, clearly lots of collectors like "circulation cameo". I'm just trying to reconcile the qualitative assessment of "low eye appeal" with an apparent appreciation for the look of "circulation cameo" by at least some collectors. I dig the look, it's a semi-key date, and I paid only a fraction of greysheet, so I'm cool with it, and it actually looks better in hand than in these photos, the diagonal bands really pop whereas here they look quite flat...and maybe now I won't bother with a TPG submission since it's likely to just get 'details'. Also, I take it PCGS restoration or NCS likely can't "fix" the low eye appeal env damage? PCGS restoration is meant for MS coins with spotty toning issues (and similar) right, then they just use MS70 or the like? Edited by one_fine_dime
01/14/2021 7:57 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
Quote:
Ok cool. Again, greysheet for XF40 is $190, I paid $52. Ok great , but that's $190 for a no problem EF-40 and assuming it has decent eye appeal . |
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Replies: 21 / Views: 2,713 |
Posted 01/14/2021 12:43 pm
