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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,504 |
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New Member
Canada
43 Posts |
Hi ,in my 2020 Charlton the 1858 cent the FV shows (pics and description)intact vine inside leaf #13 and intact stem to leaf #9 . I assume correct ?
The BS variety picture shows an intact vine inside leaf 13 but description says broken vine inside leaf 13 .
Is the BS broken vine 13 with broken stem 9 as described or is it intact vine 13 with broken stem 9 as pictured ?
Is the fifth die -broken vine 13 broken stem 9 considered BS or is the fourth die -intact vine 13 broken stem 9 the BS ?
Thanks
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5588 Posts |
I will quote from the 2011 Charlton Vicky Large Cent variety section. ThatCharlton variety guide was written by a small cadre of diligent variety collectors. The author of the 1858 dated Cents was "bosox" who is the ultimate guru on 1858 Cents:
"Most 1858 and all 1859 working dies had a broken vine at leaf 13. Many also had a broken vine at leaf 7. Only the first 3 working dies sunk in 1858 had a completely intact vine and 16 intact stems". "The stem to leaf 9 broke during the sinking of this fourth working die sunk in 1858. Only this single die had a completely intact vine, 15 intact leaf stems and ONE broken stem at leaf 9. The vine at leaf 13 and the other stems broke during the sinking of the 5th working die." So only one working die had a full vine and 15 stems.
I don't know what you mean by BS (or what it is an abbreviation of) in the 2020 Charlton guide. I, among others, worked with Rob to complete the 2011 variety section. I can guarantee 100% that Rob is exactly correct about the 1858 cents. Take it to the bank and if Charlton says that something else is a fact, then Charlton is WRONG! So it boils down to there are 3 working dies that struck coins with a full vine an 16 stems and only 1 die that struck full vine and 15 stems (the stem at 9 is broken). All other 1858s had a broken vine at 13 and later also a broken vine at 7, along with more stems that gradually broke off the hub, so dies had more broken stems.
Edited by okiecoiner
01/31/2021 1:35 pm
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New Member
 Canada
43 Posts |
BS is broken stem .
Part of the description you quote is in the 2020 but is now describing the FV or full vine variety and part is describing the BS variety
I did a search before posting and found that the fourth die around 2012 o 13 seemed to apply to the FV variety at that time .
Seems I`m really misunderstanding things or things have changed .I can take and post a pic of the discrepancy if would help .
Thanks
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5588 Posts |
Let's just say that Charlton has, in the past, had some glaring errors and not much has changed. I'm not sure what you mean by 2012 -2013, but that doesn't change the TRUE fact that the 4th die had full vine and 15 stems (the one at 9 broken). The first 3 dies had a full vine and all 16 stems. I could care less what Charlton says or has said. I'm just a variety collector/researcher who doesn't have a Charton past 2013, but 30 years of research.
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New Member
Canada
43 Posts |
Just trying to get a clarification on the correct coin to look for as there is a discrepancy in the book .
The 1858 BS is a recognized variety .Is it the full vine leaf 13 as pictured or the broken vine leaf 13 as described ?
Thanks
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5588 Posts |
I have no idea what is in the book or what the description means ... I imagine that you mean Charlton. EVERY coin struck with any of the first 4 dies had a FULL UNBROKEN VINE. The SCARCEST 1858 is the full vine 15 stem and it is the most costly. The next scarcest is the full vine 16 stem (the stem at 9 is full) and, with just 3 dies, are hard to find. The broken vine (broken at 13) 1858's are what can be considered run-of-the-mill 1858's that still are a must-have for all collectors. Again, after the first 4 working dies, EVERY 1858 and '59 has a broken vine at 13, then a vine break at 7 was added (which had the gap grow with nearly every die made) and other stems were then broken as well as the year went on. I don't understand where your dilemma starts. Just reread my words again and look at the pictures and descriptions that Charlton is throwing out.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5588 Posts |
Bigal21 ... I think that I remembered something that may clarify what you are looking at in Charlton. I hope.
When Bill Cross was the owner of Charlton and we 5 collectors wrote the Vicky Large Cent variety section for the 2011 (65th edition) guide. We were only able to show/list 80 different coins and to try to get at least 1 variety for each date to 1900 due to space constraints. We could have listed, easily, another 50-60 that were highly collectible and fairly well known. But we DID list the 2 different types of "full-vine" coins. On each page of the variety section, we posted a full price line (each grade) for both a "normal" coin as well as the variety.. We made it easy for Charlton, because we just put in a "multiplication" factor for the variety vs the normal coin for value. Charlton took our "price guide" directly into both the back variety section, as well as into the front of the guide for those that they wanted in the front of the book. Every year thereafter for 4-5 years, they moved more from our back-pages variety section into the front of the book for listing. It took until nearly 2015 to get those 2 '58 varieties into the front of the book, as well as inclusion of 1859 DP 3's, 4's, 5's and 9/6's. Other popular varieties now for other dates have slowly made their way into the front of the book, as well as Trends.
For the 1858 varieties pertaining to the full-vine and stem varieties, we used the following and It still may be the same. There is a price listed for a "normal" 1858 and then the was a "2 times" value for the full-vine 16 stem and a "3-times" value for the full stem 15 stem variety. Look in your 2020 Charlton and look at the prices. The 16-stem will be a twice the value of a normal and the 15 stem will be at 3 times the value or approximately so. As an added bonus for our work, "Trends" started to list all the varieties, regardless the denomination, that were now in the FRONT of Charlton, so our work and pricings carried on with the "Trends" pages, at least initially. As more and more collectors started to request and buy certain varieties from dealers, our price list and the "multiplication factor" may have changed a little, but not by much. If you are still in a quandary as to what description matches which price or photo, just look at the prices assigned.
For the 2012 Charlton, a "normal" 1858 in VF-20 was $150. A full-vine 16 stem VF-20 was $300 and a full-vine 15 stem was $450. What Charlton has for prices or multiplication values, as to "normal" vs variety for 2020 is unknown to me, but it should be approx 2X or 3X, depending on which full-vine variety it is listing.
Edited by okiecoiner
01/31/2021 5:14 pm
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New Member
Canada
43 Posts |
Thanks .I thought had pieced it together in a general search of the rarity from old posts .The confusion was due to the missprint in the newer Charltons .As mentioned it shows a picture of a full vine 13 but the description caption under it says broken vine 13 .The older posts made no mention of the BS so it did make me wonder if at one time they were lumped together more and now more separated. I`m often rearranging my books as new varieties get found/added .
You have to believe that at entry level knowledge a missprint can be very confusing , you know there`s a mistake but which is wrong ,not to mention the additions .
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5588 Posts |
If you are going to collect Large Cents and some or more of the varities, you need to pick up a copy of the 2011 Charlton (65th edition) to keep in your library. For $10 or so, it's a bargain for your library.
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New Member
Canada
43 Posts |
Will keep an eye ,sure can find in time ,thanks
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1352 Posts |
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
01/31/2021 6:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5588 Posts |
That's OK, Bigal21 .. I'm happy to clarify things for variety collectors. I've been at it a long time, along with many of my compatriots. I'm just glad that the thread was on Vicky Large Cents. I know almost nothing post-WWI.
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New Member
Canada
43 Posts |
Thanks ,I forget about that site .Slowly getting it together.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
9864 Posts |
Quote:
Slowly getting it together. Unlike you Bi gal12 I'm still confused. "Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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New Member
Canada
43 Posts |
Hi DBM ,story of my life ,been confused so long seems normal now ,insanity with the odd moment of clarity is okay if a guy stays home.
The picture links bosox sent were the icing for me ,tied together what okiecoiner was writing .
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5588 Posts |
If you really want clarity Bigal21, then think about the fact that the links bosox sent are probably his coins as well. I told you that bosox was the 1858 guru and the registry set that the links refer to is his own set.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,504 |
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Posted 01/31/2021 1:44 pm
