Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. 300,000 items to help build your collection! Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Possible Super Counterfeit 1889 3CN On Ebay

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 1,415Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
GrapeCollects's Avatar
United States
8938 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  12:09 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I'm going to prelude this with the fact that I could be totally, 100% wrong on this one, and if I am I'll look like an idiot, but hey, learning experience I guess.

Now I'm no expert in 3CN but if I'm right on this that's really concerning.

This was originally linked to me by another CCF member as he wanted to know my thoughts on grade. The problem began when I tried to match the coin with any of the die pairings known and none were a match.

So, the subject coin.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ESTATE-FIN...AOSwEoRgB2FC

So first a prelude I guess to 3CN courtesy of Newman Numismatic Portal.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

So there are some important takeaways from this right off the bat. Firstly, only 4 working dies were used to strike both proof and business strike coins, so there is effectively no chance of an unknown die pairing.

Secondly, no genuine business strikes exist without a repunched date.

So here's the subject coin.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay
Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

At first glance it appears to be, and is marketed as a nice BU Business strike.

Given that it is advertised as a business strike it'd be proper to first make the distinction on if it does or does not match any of the business strike die pairs. Remember that as stated above, all business strikes show a repunched date.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

Now it doesn't show an obvious repunched date, but for accuracy lets compare it to all known obverse dies.

The first die listed for business strikes is 1889BO4

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

Now it's quite obvious that if it was BO4 the RPD would be very visible, but given that it is not present it is safe to say it is not B04.

The next pairing is BO4a, a later die stage of the first pairing.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

While the repunching is much weaker, it'd still be clearly visible. So again, it's safe to say it is not BO4a.

The last pairing is BO4b, the final die stage of this die marriage.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

Now with this coin the RPD was polished off after a die clash, however some clash marks remain and are used as the die markers to identify this marriage.

The first is a clash from the hair to the last A in AMERICA.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

As you can see there is clearly no clash there, while in the above reference there would be a clear clash mark.

The second marker is a pair of die scratches below the bonnet.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

While the photos are a bit blurry here, the scratches are quite pronounced on a genuine example, and would likely still be very visible even in these photos.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

There would be a semi-circular clash mark visible connecting the leg and bar of the numeral on a genuine example, which is clearly not on this coin.

This marks all die pairings for a business strike coin. At this point we can definitively conclude this is not a business strike. So at this point we should look at the possibility of it being a proof coin.

There are a total of 4 proof pairings to look at. The first of which is below, 1889PO1.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

1889PO1 shows a significant clash mark below the bonnet on the obverse. Now compared to the subject coin:

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

As can be clearly seen those clash marks are not present which rules out PO1.

The second die is PO1a.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

PO1a is the same die as PO1 but has been polished to remove clash marks. The clash below the bonnet as significantly weakened, but is still visible, compared with the subject coin.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

On the subject coin no such clash mark is visible.

Now this raises the obvious question, could this simply be a coin struck prior to the die clash in 1889P01? The answer is likely no. There is only a single known example of PO1, making it unique, the chance that a preclash example is unknown is extremely low, if not outright impossible. It is likely that the entire batch was pulled and melted which would explain the rarity of a fully clashed example, and lack of any unclashed specimen.

The next pairing 1889PO2.
Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

Out of all the dies, PO2 is the closest, and likely the die this coin was copied from (assuming I'm correct about this being a fake.) The example coin above matches very closely in date position with the subject coin (pictured below).

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

However one key difference is the angle of the 1 in the date. On the example coin, the one is closer to the bust and slightly tilted. Additionally, the 1 is slightly further leftwards than the subject coin.

The final die pairing is 1884P03 shown below.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

This die can be immediately tossed out due to the fact that the 1 is much further left than on the subject coin (show below). It is also worth mentioning on the example coin the 9 would be much closer to the denticles than on the subject coin.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

Those are all known dies, none of which, to my knowledge and observations, are a match, but, given I likely have no idea what I'm talking about, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter. What do you think?

Edit:
A few additional comments at the end I forgot to originally include. I find it extremely unlikely that this is a proof, regardless of die pairings, due to the strike through on the reverse by the furthest right numeral.

Sources:
The Ultimate Guide to U.S. Three Cent Nickels: 1865 to 1889, by Allan Gifford.
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/555545
Edited by GrapeCollects
02/10/2021 12:12 am
Pillar of the Community
westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  12:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grape I am trying to overlay these photos with what is on PCGS Coinfacts and one matches up just about perfectly the other two images are way off, I don't see the die scratches or die cracks on this example though. It's not conclusive yet.

I've also bought from this seller in the past at shows and on ebay, he is sort of local to me, about 30 miles away. Overall I don't have any bad feelings about this coin nor the dealer, he is okay I suppose, I've done a few trades with him at the TNA show and purchased a couple of times.

The price is great on ebay for the coin, Gary Rosner has one in a PCGS holder PR65 on sale for $480 on his site now. so it's not out of line for a raw coin. I'd contact the dealer and see if he would be acceptable to a refund if the coin comes back from a slabbing as counterfeit. Otherwise I'm inclined to think it's okay for now. There could be some doubling on the last two digits, I can see them easily on the Coinfacts image but not the ebay image, it's too low of resolution. That and the two tiny die crack on the reverse are the only thing holding me back from saying good conclusively. It's a close call with these images.

EDIT: To say all images on Coinfacts are the business strikes they state all known examples so far graded are MS67 only. This example isn't MS67 (obviously) and I also agree not a proof. So? On PCGS Coinfacts I don't see any Date RPD on the one of the proof examples either. This is a puzzle.

Here is the coin Gary Rosner has for sale (from a 2013 Heitage Auction): https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-thre...ToLot-071515
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
02/10/2021 01:14 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
GrapeCollects's Avatar
United States
8938 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  01:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Westcoin,

Out of the 3 imagines displayed on coinfacts all are BO4b, in that stage the RPD has been polished off, however identifying die scratches and clash marks on the coin match it with that pairing.

As for the proofs on coinfacts, they are in order, PO3, PO1a, PO1a.

I agree that it's a puzzle. Again, not sure either way.

If it is a fake, I don't think the seller is aware for the record. I've bought from him before as well.

If this was a business strike it'd have to be BO4a, but I can't see any repunching to support that.
Edited by GrapeCollects
02/10/2021 02:28 am
Pillar of the Community
kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  02:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know anything about these, but here is an MS65 that doesn't show RPD or signs of the die clashes. https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515

Comparing with some proof coins on Heritage, there is subtle doubling in the E of America, O in Of, the subtle extra lip in the upper right rim, lots of tiny details that it seems would be difficult to replicate in a counterfeit. Perhaps the proof dies were enlisted for business strikes? Reference books can be incomplete. If it's fake it's the best one I've seen online, there don't seem to be signs of a laser etched die.

Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
GrapeCollects's Avatar
United States
8938 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  02:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
here is an MS65 that doesn't show RPD or signs of the die clashes


That one looks to be BO4b, though it's difficult to ascertain with HA's photos. I'm fairly certain I can see the die scratches below the bonnet and the clash at the hair curl, though the scratch on the holder overlaps that area making it hard to tell. Not sure tho.
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
spru's Avatar
United States
12477 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  04:21 am  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a nice-looking coin in any case.
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
Bedrock of the Community
Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  08:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It sure is!
Rest in Peace
dave700x's Avatar
United States
10625 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
he is sort of local to me, about 30 miles away.


West, you need to get out and hit some local estate sales.
Valued Member
United States
202 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  12:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add apcol258 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Genuine coin and a proof strike. Note the reverse flaw at 1:00. Matches up perfectly with this example:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...ption-071515


Edit: This would make it P02 in Gifford's book. Keep in mind the date example he gives in the book for that die pair is just a computer generated image. I wouldn't lean too heavily on it
Edited by apcol258
02/10/2021 1:31 pm
Pillar of the Community
westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
apcol258: Genuine coin and a proof strike. Note the reverse flaw at 1:00. Matches up perfectly with this example:


Thanks for that link, I tried my overlays and they match up to the denticle exactly, as does the rim collar flaw. Even some of the frosting in the crevassed areas around the design are the same. in fact blinking between the two shows no movement at all. (Other than a slight imbalance from the design of the different lenses used to make the photographs, which can't be helped). The ebay shot is blurrier as it isn't as high resolution as the Heritage image and I had to up scale it to make it fit, as well as rotate slightly. I'm assuming if the ebay image was better resolution I could then see die polish markings as well. In a few areas I isolated on lettering on the obverse the edges map up exactly as well some rougher spots on their edges fit my overlay, specifically the upper inside loop on the O in "OF" and the E in "America" you can see some of the lapping from the Longacre's Doubling effect, matching up.

Also After careful examination of the ebay photo I notice the date area is blurrier than the rest of the image, which says that the camera wasn't perfectly level or perpendicular upon firing the photo to the coin, the more in focus areas are towards the top of the coin, a slight tilt and a too low of F stop used keep the date area mushy and impossible to see the very slight doubling on the bottom serif of the 1. But even in the blinking it looks to be there.

I believe it is genuine based on that alone, there is nothing out of place to the sub millimeter. We have a proof coin Grape. Maybe a PR64? Hard to grade, but given that there are so many high end pieces known that would make a high grade against the others a tough call. This one matches a grade of PR63 on PCGS Market, so it's probably a bit overpriced for a raw coin, but it is definitely a proof coin from the die match up I am able to do. I wish I could easily make a blinking gif file to show you some of the close up areas it's really neat, the only thing changing is color balance and lighting.

Anyways a neat learning bit for us, very fun to work on as well, thanks for that, I always enjoy going down a coin rabbit hole , to speak in search of the whole truth.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
02/10/2021 4:44 pm
Pillar of the Community
westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  7:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
West, you need to get out and hit some local estate sales.


I never find any coins at estate sales here. In fact I got a flyer for an estate sale this weekend a couple of blocks over. Might have to stop by. LOL
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
GrapeCollects's Avatar
United States
8938 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2021  10:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@apcol258 it does look similar,

The one in the listing you reference is PO2 which, based on what WestCoin is saying would make the subject coin also a PO2. Interesting that it's a proof since it certainly doesn't look the part.


Quote:
Anyways a neat learning bit for us, very fun to work on as well, thanks for that, I always enjoy going down a coin rabbit hole , to speak in search of the whole truth.


It was an interesting thread to research about. On the plus side, now I've memorized every die marriage for the 1889 3CN lol.
Pillar of the Community
kbbpll's Avatar
United States
4233 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2021  12:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It wasn't difficult to find a lot more with the rim crack. Some of these may be duplicates - resales and/or reholders. I was thinking I might find an MS with the same marker but no, although there are very few business strikes on Heritage relative to proofs.

One thing I noted is that all of the rim crack coins have the same marker on the obverse - two "dots" in between denticles below the date. It probably has been noted elsewhere and just further identifies the die pair. As I was numbing my brain going through 100+ coin images, I noted that if the dots in the denticles weren't there, the reverse was not going to have the rim crack.

Possible-Super-Counterfeit-1889-3CN-On-Ebay

https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-cent...bnail-071515
Edited by kbbpll
02/11/2021 12:50 am
Pillar of the Community
suipakpaikungfu's Avatar
United States
992 Posts
 Posted 02/11/2021  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add suipakpaikungfu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Guess I'm in the minority,But looks like it's a well made cast piece to me.
Hope I'm wrong.
  Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 1,415Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.42 seconds to rattle this change. Forums