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 Replies: 13 / Views: 3,324 |
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Valued Member
Canada
234 Posts |
Here is a 5 cents coin (2016) that puzzles us. This coin has been discussed on another forum, and I got the authorization to use pictures. For those speaking French, here's the link: https://numicanada.com/forum/viewto...&t=34298#top br / Many of us think this is a Post Mint Damage. As the main clue, you will observe a good torsion on the coin that cannot be produce during the strike. But, if you take a close look to the obverse Beads and "D", they are quite clean. And the incused strip doesn't show any metal slip or displacement. For that reason, few others think it's a legit error. All the marks seem to come from a single event, since they have the same point of origin on the edge. Maybe the coin has been damage during the ejection of striking chamber or during counting/rolling steps (at Mint or somewhere else). So.... thanks to share your observations/conclusions.       |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
666 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
Struck on a incomplete clip planchet, the D is struck on top of the recess
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Valued Member
 Canada
234 Posts |
Thanks John,
incomplete clip was one of the option we studied, but not retained.
First, the recess section is too large. Incomplete clip produces usually a thin groove.
And that doesn't explain the coin's torsion.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
Just struck on a flawed planchet, but still this coin looks PMD at first glance, hard to get real value, first impression are hard to forget Edited by john100
08/13/2021 1:11 pm
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Moderator
 Canada
10456 Posts |
Nope. there is no way the collar die would allow that much deformation. And, the only way that coin has a rim, is because of the collar die.
Definitely not an incomplete punched planchet. I have handled several examples in 5c coins, and they don't look like that - in fact they pinch inward at the rim from the upset mill.
I can't explain the preservation of the D, without seeing the coin in hand, but from what I see, this is post strike damage.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
What if, stuck in the collar and the pressman used a tool to pry it out and fell into bulk bin
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
632 Posts |
Partial clip.
You are thinking about the deformations coin suffer in other old low speed presses but this is a coin struck on a high speed press where the feeding is horizontal. The colar exerts pressure but little containment (reason why edge lettering in twoonies cause bumps).
Legit error
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1775 Posts |
Quote:
(reason why edge lettering in twoonies cause bumps). The collar does not apply the edge lettering. If it did, the lettering would be unidirectional. The lettering is applied post strike in a separate press, with the coins feeding in random obverse or reverse. That's why the edge lettering has 2 readable directions, and why the letters swell the rim. I think it's legit too though. That D is selling me. No plating damage either. Curious. "We are poor little lambs...who have lost our way...Baa...Baa...Baa"
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
632 Posts |
Twoonie: The colar deforms the edge, it does not apply the lettering.
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Moderator
Canada
10456 Posts |
Quote:
Partial clip. Nope. Not a partial clip (which is the wrong way to call that - you are referring to an incomplete punched blank). Quote:
Legit error Not even close. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2869 Posts |
That damaged rim is a giveaway to me.
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Valued Member
Canada
234 Posts |
Thank you for all your comments. Interesting... Few comments not related to the main subject.... Quote:
The collar does not apply the edge lettering. If it did, the lettering would be unidirectional. The lettering is applied post strike in a separate press, with the coins feeding in random obverse or reverse. That's why the edge lettering has 2 readable directions, and why the letters swell the rim.
Almost right. Edge Lettering is produced at a different step. But it's done before strike, just after the upsetting, on the planchet ring. Quote:
Twoonie: The colar deforms the edge, it does not apply the lettering.
Just take a close look at the 2$ bumbs. You will see they are all aligned with edge letters. Now let's go back with the main subject. This coin may be a legit error, but I have two concerns. First, how can we explain the torsion on the coin? If it's coming from a defective planchet, the strike will flatten the planchet. The pressure is too high. Can the striking chamber produce a crooked coin? I don't think so. The second point is the synchronisation of the observed marks. Take a look at the rim mark. Observe and reverse marks have the same point of origine on the rim. And the torsion is also aligned with this rim mark. So that tell us that everything is coming from a single event. It would be unlikely if there's two events. So if the striking chamber cannot bent the coin and there's only a single event, the only remaining option is the PMD. But I understand that the Beads and D are quite clean and difficult to explain with a PMD..... Could this damage be produced during ejection from striking chamber? How? Still a mystery... Other observation? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1186 Posts |
I think the lighting and angles play a big part in this, if you look at the second photo you can see the displaced metal on the "D" where its clear the damage goes over and not under.
But in the 3rd photo you cant see the displaced metal on top of the "D" and instead there is an extra bead protruding from the first bead in the indent above the "D" that is not visible in the 2nd photo.
4th photo of the reverse shows the damage going under "5 CENTS" but again in the 5th photo the damage is clearly on top of "5 CENTS" as you can once again see displaced metal.
My conclusion, this is post mint damage and not an error, too many things lead to damage on this coin IMO.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018. 2023 Recent Publications: Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024) Edited by JohnWayne007
08/15/2021 08:10 am
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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,324 |
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Posted 08/13/2021 12:19 pm
