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1881 H Vicky Cent, Double/Triple Re-Punched Letters On Obverse

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 Posted 10/03/2021  4:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Going through some large cents I picked up from the local flea market a couple of weeks ago and came across this 1881 H with re-punched letters on the obverse, the coin has been cleaned by the looks of it.

I checked out Coins and Canada and it almost matches with Doubled Die #2 but on #2 the last "A" in "GRATIA" is doubled, while the one I have is not.

There are other minor discrepancies that lead me to think it is not the #2 that Coins and Canada have listed.


1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
Edited by JohnWayne007
10/03/2021 4:34 pm
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 Posted 10/03/2021  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your coin is really worn for the doubling to show on the "A".
Here's your coin in better condition.
This is more accurately described as the "Mixed Font" variety.

Cheers, Bill

1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
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 Posted 10/03/2021  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You, John, have an 1881 Obv 1a in my opinion. In '81, they were using the 1876 Obv dies where the N's were single serif on the bottom left. They repunched the N's in many of the dies, sometimes very clumsily. Since there were so many 1876's minted, plus now for the '81's, many of the other letters had to be handpunched, as well due to die wear, especially the I's. There are many many 1881 Obv 1 dies that have all kinds or repunched letters and then there was MD on some of them as well. Some of the handpunches have a great deal of offset, like your I's and T's and C's.. If I had to guess, I would say that there are at least 50 different Obv varieties, if you include the Obv 1/1a's as well. The '81's, just by themselves, create a collecting specialty all alone.
Edited by okiecoiner
10/03/2021 8:41 pm
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 Posted 10/03/2021  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@JohnWayne007 - I think your coin is the Heavy Punch Doubling example as shown on page 310 of the 2011 Charlton

@ Hounddog Bill - I think your coin is the Around the Clock Doubling as shown on page 311 of the 2011 Charlton

Compare the C in VICTORIA
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 Posted 10/03/2021  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John's is not the one on p 310. There was so much repunching in '81 and '82, it's hard to keep them separate.

Here is another, just of Victoria The coin on p310 is an Obv 1a/1. His is an Obv 1a. Hounddog's is right.
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 Posted 10/03/2021  6:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter4 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice!
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 Posted 10/03/2021  8:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This thread is getting to contain a lot of misinformation.
There's no question this is the coin featured on page 310 of the 2011 Charlton right down to the die crack at the "T" in Victoria.
The original coin, my coin and Okie's coin are all coined from the same obverse die which is an Obverse "1" not a "1a".
Here are some more pictures that may show it better.

Cheers, Bill


1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse

1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
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 Posted 10/03/2021  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hounddog .... until we can see the coins in-hand I will stick with the OP coin (John's) is a 1a because the neck truncation is rounded and somewhat away from the bead. Your coin, Billl, and the one on p 310 are 1a/1 because they come to a point, but has the rounded extremity of a 1a. The coins that were pictured for the 1881's in the 2011 Charlton were mine and Dan's. Without a coin in hand, it is sometimes hard to tell a 1a/1 from a 1 because you can't see the little "dimple" either and both come to a point nearly touching the bead. On coins above XF or so, you can also see a difference on the position of the crown tip. Regardless, John has a nice coin with well-offset doubling and all the photos show the plethora of things that you can find in the 1881's.
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 Posted 10/03/2021  9:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since I am waiting for my rear camera on my cellphone to be replaced I have nothing to take a good clear full image.

This is the best I could do for the obverse with my microscope, the color and hue of the coin are completely off so don't mind the color, for now, my microscope has auto-exposure stuck on while connected to my mac and with the LED lights it ruins the shot when taking closer to full coin photos.


1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
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 Posted 10/03/2021  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry Okie but if you enlarge the pictures all three of the coins shown here have the same die crack at the T in Victoria and if you refer to the 2011 Charlton that picture also shows the die crack.
In the 2011 Charlton they say it's an obv. "1", has this changed?

Cheers, Bill
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 Posted 10/04/2021  07:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I couldn't enlarge with my computer, so yes it's an Obv 1. When we wrote the 2011 and gave the short descriptions, we didn't designate the 1a/1 unless we were showing an example of that and how it diffetred from an Obv 1. I guess I need my eyes and computer checked. I can't enlarge or "pretty up" a photo.
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 Posted 10/04/2021  2:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for the replies, since I do not currently have the 2011 Charlton I'm a little lost though, I did find a couple of the same examples on the PCGS site but they are saying it is a "Rare Variety" is this correct?

I recall the 2x2 it was in when I purchased it saying $1.00 so I guess I cant complain if that is the case either way.

Edit: So it is Doubled Die #2 as seen on Coins and Canada?
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
Edited by JohnWayne007
10/04/2021 2:42 pm
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 Posted 10/04/2021  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All the pics are of the coin on pg 310. This punch doubling not double die. The fun part of this coin is that different font punches were used creating the huge offsets on some of the letters.

So to answer your question JohnWayne007, this is not the Coins Canada Double Die #2
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 Posted 10/04/2021  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes your coin is definitely the same coin as what Coins and Canada are calling double die #2.
I don't agree it's a double die as all the letters showing the offsets are all re-punched letters. What makes this such an interesting obverse is it was re-punched with the wrong set of punches .
I believe Dr. Haxby wrote an article on this and he determined or believes it was a punch set for one of the Provincial coins that was mistakenly used.
This would not be the first time that an incorrect punch was used but in other cases it was only one letter.
This coin has seventeen letters clearly re-punch with incorrect punches and at least two other that were repaired with engravers tools.
It's definitely a tough coin to find especially in better condition but they do come up and can be found so I'm not sure I'd call it rare.

Cheers, Bill
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 Posted 10/04/2021  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Hounddog Bill for clarifying, I don't agree with it being a doubled die either, I classify re-punched letters and numbers as a completely separate variety from doubled dies.

For those who do not know the difference between doubled dies and being repunched...

Doubled die varieties occur during the creation of the obverse and reverse working dies through the hubbing process when the working punch is pressed against a blank working die more than once to get the best relief possible, if the second hubbing impression is not lined up correctly with the first hubbing impression it will leave a working die showing distinctive doubled letters, numbers, or details that will be transferred to every single coin that is struck with that working die until it is changed out for a new one.

Repunched letters and numbers are exactly that, letters or numbers that have manually been repunched by hand leaving large offsets or spreads between impressions and do not happen in the same manner as a doubled die even though they both create a similar outcome.

That is just my opinion.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
Edited by JohnWayne007
10/04/2021 6:36 pm
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 Posted 10/13/2021  03:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I managed to somewhat get half-decent full coin photos.


1881-H-Vicky-Cent,-Double/Triple-Re-Punched-Letters-On-Obverse


After doing some more research I found that this variety can also be compared to the variety being shown when searching for PCGS# 596404 but I'm not 100% sure I am correct, looks identical to me though.
Finding and discovering modern Canadian doubled die varieties since 2018.

2023 Recent Publications:
Modern Canadian Doubled Die Varieties - First Edition
PDF & Paperback https://www.mcddv.ca (website currently down for maintenance as of 08/01/2024)
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