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 Replies: 21 / Views: 1,942 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Ok, it seems like this coin is too obscure for anyone to recognize it so far so I'll just provide the documentation that Bob LeNeve, the foremost expert on this coin provided in the linked article in the Numismatist. It is one of those unique and important moments in U.S. numismatic history. I think the most important part is in the section called "Finding Answers" on pages 52-53 where it turns into a Civil War spy story with what our forefathers went through during the Civil War. http://onlinedigitalpublishing.com/...r=html5&p=50 This is documented to have been struck after the Confederate States of America took over the New Orleans Mint. Thoughts? Thanks!    IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
11/19/2021 8:49 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
Is the obverse die crack present? I can't tell.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11898 Posts |
I don't have better pictures, but is the nose doubled?   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
@dave700x - as you can see from the close up of the head, it is not.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
I could be wrong but I thought all '61-O halves struck under CSA occupation were from the obverse die with the crack from rim to nose.
Edited by dave700x
11/19/2021 3:41 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
@dave700x - not exactly. Louisiana voted to secede from the Union on January 22, 1861, and the New Orleans Mint was seized by Confederate authorities days later.
- The period before the January 22, 1861 Louisiana vote to secede is known as the Federal period, and the coins minted in this period are most scarce.
- Between January 22, 1861 when Louisiana seceded from the Union and March 21, 1861 when Louisiana ratified the Constitution of the Confederate States of America and joined the CSA, the New Orleans Mint was under the control of the State of Louisiana.
- Between March 21, 1861 until May 31, 1861 when all Mint employees were released from their duties, it was under the official control of the CSA.
The New Orleans Mint was under the control of the CSA, which chose to release all Mint workers and house troops in the building from May 31, 1861 until April 26, 1862 when the Union Navy defeated the CSA in the Battle of Baton Rouge a day earlier and retook New Orleans under the command of U.S. Navy Fleet Admiral David Farragut.
Most of the 962,633 1861-O half dollars cannot be attributed to any of these periods, but a small number, including this coin and some other varieties like the ones with die cracks by liberty's nose, the date, the reverse olive bud can, as these were generally but not necessarily, late-stage failing dies at the tail-end of the 1861 New Orleans Mint abbreviated production run.
Note that during what most scholars call the Louisiana State period of governance (Jan 22 - Mar 21), the CSA and its officials were in control of the Mint and busy issuing coinage for the CSA.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
11/19/2021 3:42 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
I was not aware coins struck from another die pair could be traced to this period. Looking forward to your images.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3848 Posts |
You really trust this seller if you only have these photos and a "confederate issue" title! Hopefully the description is accurate...  Looking forward to in hand photos! Suffering from bust half fever. Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Seller didn't advertise it as a confederate issue. That was me.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2282 Posts |
numismatic student is more like the professor at this point.
You realize when you know how to think, it empowers you far beyond those who know only what to think.
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Pillar of the Community
United States
824 Posts |
Not that I don't trust your knowledge that this is a Confederate issue but to me it looks like the reverse is a Reverse C which would make it either W-3 or W-4 which are both Louisiana die marriages. Do you have the coin in hand? Which CSA die marriage do you believe it is? Can you provide closer sharper images?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3848 Posts |
I would also like to know the diagnostics that you see that make this a CSA issue.
If you bought this as a non CSA issue, then that would be one heck of a cherrypick! CSA 1861's have significant premiums.
Suffering from bust half fever. Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
@Heymikep - I don't have the coin in hand so no further images. All 12 die marriages were used to produce the Federal, Louisiana and CSA coins so there are no specific CSA die marriages. Some of these 12 die pairs developed cracks and other markers that were documented to have occurred after the CSA takeover of the no mint and those late stage impressions from the same 12 die pairs are attributed to the CSA. Not sure which die pair produced this coin. I think instead of die pair, you meant to ask which CSA die state do I think produced this coin. The die state is not how I attributed this coin, but it was using other scholarship. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
11/19/2021 8:38 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Updated the original post with some answers to your questions.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
824 Posts |
Numismaticstudent, I think you need to change your name! You are no longer a student but a teacher. I would love to see the full pic of this coin in its slab. You must have really won the lottery a few times didn't you? I do have a question, is there a die line running from the upper right serif inside the N in United down through the U and then to the tip of the wing? Hard to see in your images but when you get the coin in hand if you could let me know I appreciate it. Here is a little excerpt from Bill Bugert latest book "A Register of Seated Liberty half dollars New Orleans" Volume IV. He references Randy Wiley and his publishing's on the New Orleans Mint and the 15 die marriage sequences. He does not mention Specimans or Proofs. For many good reasons, this date is one of the most popular in the Liberty Seated half dollar series. Even before Randy Wiley published his stunning award winning research efforts for this date2, it was historically popular for the three minting authorities; i.e., the United States of America, the State of Louisiana, and the Confederate States of America. With his articles, he exponentially increased interest and demand for coins of this date. Until a few years ago, with the exception of the 1861-O CSA die crack, there was no absolute method of determining approximately when and under whose authority an 1861-O half dollar was minted, an important question to many. Essentially, Randy researched and armed himself with three vital pieces of information, linked them to the three minting authorities, and produced a very convincing argument for 1861-O half dollars. Randy's analysis is very lengthy and thorough and I will not duplicate it here; I will summarize his findings and attempt to simplify the die identification process. 1. With access to two large hoards of 1861-O half dollars, Randy accurately determined an emission sequence for all the 1861-O die marriages (unlike most other dates in the Liberty Seated half dollar series, all dies are linked together and this information is critical to the analysis). 2. From knowledge of the other dates of this period, he suggested an average die usage. 3. He exploited the known mintage figures by minting authority and applied them to the die marriages. Edited by Heymikep
11/19/2021 11:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
824 Posts |
I just found this from the NGC website,
Estimates of the number of survivors are in the four the five range, though Walter Breen reported as many as six. His figure is now considered to include some duplication, which is understandable given the poor or non-existant photographs in catalogs published before the 1970s. The obverse die is a clear match for Bugert's Number 2, but the reverse is not as easily attributed. He describes the W-04 marriages (Obv 2 and Rev C) as the one which made the specimen coins.
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Replies: 21 / Views: 1,942 |
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Posted 11/19/2021 2:12 pm
