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1780 Maria Theresa Thaler #30c Fake?

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 1,624Next Topic  
New Member

United States
34 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2022  10:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi,
This early 1790 MTT measured 27.55g, 41.13mm. But SG is only 10.1g/cm3 or 78% silver. My other MTTs all have SG=10.2g/cm3 or 83.3%. Is it possible a debased counterfeit coin?

1780-Maria-Theresa-Thaler-#30c-Fake?
1780-Maria-Theresa-Thaler-#30c-Fake?
Edited by hjian
03/12/2022 6:32 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1912 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2022  10:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a thought about the measures alone.
Limits of measurement error based on such things as precision, resolution, accuracy and repeatability?
Purity and impurities of metals?
I'd challenge the true meaning of 10.1 vs 10.2
New Member
United States
34 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2022  11:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, this coin looks genuine to me. I also doubted about the measurement at first. But my scale is 0.001g resolution and can easily determine 1% precision of silver content. I have measured more than 5 times with power cycle and calibration in between. I have also measured other 3 MTTs I have at the same time and the results are the same. This coin has 5% less silver than the others.
Edited by hjian
03/11/2022 11:18 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1912 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2022  11:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can you show and describe the equipment, specifications, configuration and method of the measurment equipment?
SG is Specific Gravity, but your units of measure apply to Density.
As an example, I use a lab analytical balance with an under hook.
I zero out my connections and weigh the suspended coin in air.
I then weigh the coin in water and do the math.
The result is my SG.
I suggest a better ability would go to another decimal place out such as .0001g.
The stated resolution is only one aspect of the total uncertainty of measure. There should be more specs factored in to determine the absolute limits of error.
I believe you have have a small deviation in weight compared to other coins, but I'd be reluctant to question authenticity on such a small value.
New Member
United States
34 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2022  01:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a digital scale. I first weight the coin and it is 27.55g. I then put a cup of water on the scale, zero out and read the scale when the coin is hanging in the water. It shows 2.727g. SG=27.55/2.727=10.106, which is 78%. I have used this method to measure over 100 coins from 1770 to 1950. The error of silver composition is usually within +-2% for crown size coins.
Edited by hjian
03/12/2022 01:12 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2022  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What are the other Maria Theresas you're measuring as a comparison - modern versions (1900s) or other earlier versions such as this?
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United States
1912 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2022  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm still curious if the OP would get different or better results, or have the same question if a better suited weighing method was used.
I call attention to a scale having capacity to zero out a cup of water. And the observed delta among the coins in question is a matter of .1 gram.
My questions about equipment make & model plus specifications went unanswered. It would help, if presented in this forum, if those detatils were known.
Specifications include details such as:
Weighing capacity
Maximun display
Minimum weighing value
Repeatability
Sensitivity drift
Linearity
Full scale acuracy
Percentage of range
Percentage of reading
And so on.
Just some considerations not answered here.
For these reasons, I would not be wondering if a coin was counterfeit based on some coins being 0.1 gram more or less than others. I'd want to better my measuring abilities.
One final obvservation is that among the counterfeits that are supposed to be silver in my collection, the difference in weight and SG are much greater than the difference presented in this topic.
New Member
United States
34 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2022  12:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hjian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The other MTTs I measured are three (H33a/H36a/H19a) from early 1800 and one from modern re-strike.

The scale I am using is similar to this one below but the max weight is 100g, not 200g with +-0.003g error.
0.1g error over a 28g coin is not a big deal. It can easily happen from wear during circulation. But 0.1g over 2.6g (volume measurement) is 3% error. This is beyond the error from the digital scale.
I have seen counterfeit coins with SG within the mint tolerance.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YFY4LX...J4H505GVHX6Y

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