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 Replies: 10 / Views: 1,345 |
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Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts |
Hello, A shop near me is slowly selling off the collection of an order collector through his son... I bought a very nice Philip iv Gros Tournois about two weeks ago. Looking for thoughts and opinions on this one. My only minor concern is most of the collection has been cleaned; I know this is acceptable for some ancients because they may have been cleaned for attribution or were buried, etc. Curious to hear thoughts on this one....      |
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Pillar of the Community
 Sweden
2124 Posts |
Perhaps you have already identified it, otherwise, here it is: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces113375.htmlVenetian grossi are a bit outside my field, but I think it is genuine. BUT too harshly cleaned, possibly polished, to a degree that removes all charm and beauty. Personally I would pass on this one because of that. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Italy
1130 Posts |
@erafjel - I think it might be this one - https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces90902.html My feelings were leaning toward yours on this one. The cleaning does seem harsh - even compared to the gros tournois I bought from the same shop and same consignor. My mind is split on these type coins and acceptability of 'cleaned'. Certainly a 750 year old coin will have been cleaned, liked cleaned many times, but this cleaning looks like it was done in the past 20 years. But . . . I don't know the shape the coin was in before the most recent cleaning. Was it buried? Completed covered in muck? Unattributable? Hard to tell. I am curious to hear more thoughts and opinions on this. |
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Pillar of the Community
Sweden
2124 Posts |
The inscription on the obverse is IA TEVPL for Jacopo Tiepolo, not IO DANDVL, so I must maintain my attribution ...
If you really like it, @Roma2021, then buy it. But I am sure you can do better - wait a while and a similar one in better shape will show up!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
First, from the inscription the coin it is from one of the Tiepolos, either Jacopo or Lorenzo, which can be a bit hard to tell apart on worn examples. I think @erafjel is correct that it is Jacopo since the second letter is clearly an A.
(Edit: I guess we were typing at the same time!)
I have a couple of Venetian grossi, one somewhat cleaned and one uncleaned. I think it depends on your goals and wallet. If you just want one nice Venetian grosso, I would wait for one with its original patina. If you are trying to collect a long series, then often some compromises are necessary.
Edited by tdziemia
04/19/2022 5:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts |
@era, you're right! @ tdz, you're right - I confused the two for exactly the reason tdz cited.
The coin is priced at 90 euro. This shop - and all consignment shops in Rome - reduce prices by 20% after 60 days and 10% per 30 days after.
This shop has a lot of silver coins right now. I liked the Gros Tournois I bought and, based on comparables, think I paid below retail. The coin was also cleaned, but it has some decent patina.
The shop also has a 4 Reale cob I posted under another thread.
I am thinking of waiting until June or July and seeing where the prices on these fall.
What turns me off this grosso at that price is the VERY shiny surface and obviously scratches from cleaning.
My feeling is I can wait a few months and pick up a lot at a bargain; or wait a few months, find better, reconsider, etc.
My collecting has been focused almost exclusively, and broadly, on 'coins I like'; coins with a history I can research, coins I can research and enjoy holding. I am not overly focused, nor do I think I want to be right now.
Thanks for your responses. I appreciate thinking out loud (typing) about these things.
Edited by Roma2021
04/19/2022 6:06 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts |
@era and @tdz, I just re-read the gros tournois thread and realized you two were my key (re: only) respondents for that thread! Thank you both for your thoughts on these coins.
Thinking these two coins out with you two was very beneficial for me. I see/feel the differences in the two cleanings.
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Moderator
 United States
34397 Posts |
Quote:
What turns me off this grosso at that price is the VERY shiny surface and obviously scratches from cleaning. I agree. It is a little hard to tell from these pictures, but the surfaces almost look whizzed to me. It seems like waiting for the price to come down a bit is a good idea, and if someone else bites first then it wasn't meant to be. Your taste in medieval coins seems to be far-ranging @roma. Do you have a specific interest or are you just picking up pieces that catch your eye? Of course both are valid strategies, but we might be able to point you at specific European auctions if you have a defined area of interest. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts |
@spence ... So far my coin purchases have been incidental and focused exclusively on coins I like, coins that are interesting to me, coins I feel connected too, etc.
By incidental, I mean I haven't really set out goals or focus and my purchases come while thrifting other items.
I buy defent condition Morgan and peace dollars when I see them, any European crown size coins, bullion, commemoratives... As long as I like it and find it interesting.
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Valued Member
Portugal
51 Posts |
I agree with the comments that it's too harshly cleaned (for my taste). Of course most old coins have been cleaned to one extent or another, but that is a bit too far and it actually damaged the coin in a sense. There's no patina left and the coin looks artificially shiny which is a turnoff for me. And it's not like it's a rare specimen that you won't see again... I would hold on to the money and get something else and if you like venetian grossos (I have none but I surely will get one someday myself) you'll come across more at decent prices, and that aren't shiny as a mirror :)
Benny
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Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts |
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Replies: 10 / Views: 1,345 |
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Posted 04/19/2022 5:22 pm
